Gay\transgender -- not by genetics, not by upbringing, not by choice

What about keeping themselves clean and take care of their outlook? Again, I don't mean to sound judgamental, but most transgendered people I know don't shower and shave everyday. Their hair's a mess. It seems to me like they just have breast implant, put some face paint on, and started acting fruity.M has no desire to go through surgery. And she's more naturally womanly than all these other transgendered people combined. Heck, I would argue that she's more naturally feminine than my wife.Edited by Taz, : No reason given.

I can only speak for what I've actually seen and heard. And while I occasionally point out incidents where transsexuals have essentially been forced or traumatized into some "oddness," I'm also certain that the incidence of real mental disorders is not too significantly different among any subset of the population, including those who have a mismatched gender identity. That some might not simply have an eccentricity or two and might actually be seriously mentally unstable is not unexpected.As far as I'm concerned, I strongly disapprove of attempts to further stigmatize or demonize transgender people, I think they're just as much people as you or I and deserve the ability to make their own choices even if others don't always understand or agree, I want them to have the option to complete a transition with safe medical treatment if that's their real choice, and that's about the end of my opinion on the matter.I'm not saying that you're actually my opponent on any of those points, I'm just expressing my position on the matter.

Well, me too. But we have to approach this in a more objective sense than the anything goes policy that you are suggesting.I know, I know, the liberal commie approach to life is total tolerance of anything, everything. I just simply disagree with this attitude.I am friend with many gay and transgendered people. I accept them for who they are with reservations. What do I mean by that? Allow me to give you an example that's a little over the top to make my point more obvious.I recently became acquainted with a guy through a mutual friend. After our first meet, I picked up right away that this guy is a pathological liar. Later on, I talked to the mutal friend (a psychologist) and he said yeah he knew I was going to pick up on that. We're both very good with picking up people's inner traits.We are in the process of gently pushing this guy in the right directly by encouraging him to find a self-identity of his own and not just make up shit.The point is do I have to accept this guy for who he is, which is a pathological liar that's been left untreated all this time? He's a full grown adult for christsake and nobody has pushed him in the right direction yet? Anyway, I say no, I don't have to accept fully what he is now. Will I demonize him? Nope. But obviously there's something off about this situation.I fully recognize that transgenderism is a real phenomenon. And I've spent a great length of time talking about M, whom I fully accept as a woman born in a man's body. But that doesn't mean that I have to accept every case of self-proclaimed transgenderism. When I see something off, I point it out.We shouldn't have to live in fear of offending people. Let's live in the real world for once, shall we? Sometimes, helping people requires that we make ourselves appear like the bad guy. Mothering them does nothing to help except make them feel better right now at this moment.That said, I'm telling you, some transgender people have deeper issues than gender identity disorder. We need to approach this very carefully, not mother them.

To be fair, a lot of other people have the same issues. Exactly. Every individual has his/her own unique set of problems and each has an individual set of solutions.

If, after extensive psychiatric and psychological investigation, giving them the freedom to wear an eye-patch and call themself Napoleaon despite being wholly cogniscent of the fact that they are not the 18th century leader of France alleviates their suffering - Then yes. Why not?If however being emperor of the world involves having the power to have be-headed anyone whom he so designates - Then NO.

That's what I'm saying. As much as we tolerate the masquerade, accept the masquerade, understand the masquerade, etc. we don't pretend that the masquerade is not a masquerade.Edited by ringo, : Splling.

In the case of gender identity...The mind defines the person. I couldn't much care less about the fleshy sac of blood and bone that happens to hold that mind, whether it has what sort of genitalia, or what chromosomes it may or may not have. The person is all that matters, and the mind defines the person.If a person identifies as a woman, I will refer to her as a woman, even if she happens to have a penis and a "y" chromosome. I don;t care about those things; they are irrelevant to me. All that matters is how the person honestly identifies.Transgendered individuals are not under the psychotic illusion that their bodies are something other than what they are. They don't hallucinate. They are well aware of how they were born, they don't for a moment believe themselves to be something they are not. There is no dissociation from reality in cases of real gender identity dysphoria. They are not crazy, they are not schizophrenic.Continuing to refer to a transwoman as "he" serves no useful purpose except to hurt her feelings and seriously offend her. It is, quite bluntly, nothing more than an attempt to cause emotional distress. It's on a level of appropriate conduct with using the word "faggot" to refer to a gay person.Transgenderism is not at all like a person who dissociates from reality and believes that he is, in fact, Napoleon Bonaparte, French dictator. Transgenderism is a person who identifies as one gender, but who is aware that his/her body is physically a different gender. Some individuals so afflicted choose to surgically alter the body to outwardly match their inner identity, because the mind is the person, not the fleshy meat-bag that contains it. They do not suddenly believe that reassignment surgery will allow them to bear children or impregnate a woman. They simply want to be able to live their lives according to how they identify themselves in their own mind.And I don't see anything wrong with that.As an aside, I actually did once know a man who preferred to be called "Napoleon Bonaparte." He did, in fact, believe that that was his name. Everyone went along with it.And, of course, it actually was the name on his birth certificate. He was a muscular, 6'+ 250-lb black man. He didn't believe he was short, French, white, or a dictator, and he was perfectly aware of the year. He was one of the nicest bosses I've ever had, and he had an excellent sense of humor regarding his name.

If somebody objects to being called, "Fatso," and prefers, "Jim," I have no problem complying. That isn't the same as pretending he isn't fat. The fact that he is fat is irrelevant to me but it is a fact.Whether he identifies as fat or not, it isn't right to pretend he isn't fat.

But what if it's not, in fact, any sort of masquerade? Being a man or being a woman is a performative act anyway; I don't see any reason why we have to limit the performance to those born with a certain configuration of genitals.

I haven't said anything about limiting the performance. I've said that we should recognize the performance for what it is, a performance. Acting like Napoleon isn't the same as being Napoleon. If you want to act like Napoleon, that's fine with me but don't expect me to believe that you are Napoleon.

So what does this mean in relation to, say, a transwoman?Will you refer to her as "he" or "she?"
Will you use her feminine name, or insist on using her male birth name? Does it matter if the name has been legally changed?
Is it okay to allow a transwoman to use the women's restroom, or should she be forced to use the men's room?
Should her state-issued ID say that she is male, or female?What defines a person to you, ringo? Are you identified by an accident of your birth? Or are you able to decide for yourself who you are, what you want to be and how to identify yourself?

What if he gets liposuction, and no longer looks fat?

But again, gender is a performance anyway. Acting like a man is being a man.There's every bit as much reason to be suspect of your gender claim, whatever it may be, as there is of a transsexual's. They're equally performative.

I know. I used to be a cop, remember? There were times when I could have sworn I had caught a DUI. And then they blew a zero in the breathalizer.My point is among "normal" people, the proportion of people-having-mental-issues to the people with less issues is fairly small. But when we are talking about transgendered people, the proportion is a lot higher. From my personal experience, it's way above 1, which is pretty bad.

As I've already said, I'll refer to people in whatever way they prefer. As I've already said, I'm in favour of unisex bathrooms. Where none exist, I don't care who uses which. It shouldn'r refer to gender at all. I could be Chinese by an accident of birth or by an act of emigration. Just wanting to be Chinese or declaring that I am Chinese won't make me Chinese. Having my eyes surgically "corrected" to make me look Chinese won't make me Chinese. Being Chinese means something. It isn't something you can wear like a hat. No analogy is perfect. How about answering some of the other ones? What's the difference between gender reassignment and race reassignment?