|
Register | Sign In |
|
QuickSearch
EvC Forum active members: 65 (9164 total) |
| |
ChatGPT | |
Total: 916,915 Year: 4,172/9,624 Month: 1,043/974 Week: 2/368 Day: 2/11 Hour: 1/0 |
Thread ▼ Details |
Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
|
Thread Info
|
|
|
Author | Topic: Gay\transgender -- not by genetics, not by upbringing, not by choice | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Straggler Member (Idle past 96 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
Oni writes: Et tu, Straggler? I'm ill and bored and you entertain me.
Oni writes: And from that you are saying the facts claim support of sex reassignment surgery? The quotes you yourself have supplied seem to suggest that in most cases it hasn't helped but that in a minority of cases it has. So the question becomes one of identifying which patients are best treated by which method (rather than simply opposing transgender surgery for anyone). Right? I'm simply trying to find out if you are just making a blanket objection or if you accept (as per the findings in your own quotes) that in some cases surgery can be successful and is therefore a legitimate course of action in these cases.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
onifre Member (Idle past 2981 days) Posts: 4854 From: Dark Side of the Moon Joined: |
I'm ill and bored and you entertain me. I know that was a shot at me, but I don't mind it when you do it. Hope you feel better. Whiskey...lots of it.
I'm simply trying to find out if you are just making a blanket objection or if you accept (as per the findings in your own quotes) that in some cases surgery can be successful and is therefore a legitimate course of action in these cases. Personally I don't think there is enough evidence of the long-term effects to know if, even in the small cases, it is a good idea. There seems to be conflicting opinions by the experts. One report says in small cases it has been good, the other two say that it is worse for the patient. I remain skeptical. But when I started this debate, I was told there are many case studies that say the people are better off after. No one has as of yet presented that. I did some leg work but only found conflicting views. I remain skeptical. - Oni
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Straggler Member (Idle past 96 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
Oni writes: I know that was a shot at me.... Of course. But meant in the nicest way possible.
Oni writes: I remain skeptical. So if further research leads to the conclusion that surgery can be demonstrated to be successful in some cases you would support surgery in those cases. Right? This should be about what works for the individual shouldn't it? It shouldn't be about whether you or I can conceive of a situation where we would want our dicks surgically removed.
Oni writes: But when I started this debate, I was told there are many case studies that say the people are better off after. No one has as of yet presented that. Fair enough. Those who made that claim should present those case studies.
Oni writes: I did some leg work but only found conflicting views. I fear that until we understand the human brain a lot better than we do now all we are going to get on these sorts of subjects is "conflicting views" and lots of prejudiced assertions.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
subbie writes:
That's what I've been saying all along. If looking like Angelina Jolie or Long John Silver makes them happy, I'm all for it. I'm just saying that actually cutting off bits to enhance the deception is a radical step and they should be given every opportunity to be happy before it needs to go that far.
But I also happen to think they have the same right to the pursuit of whatever makes them happy as anyone else.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
crashfrog writes:
The argument was put forward by subbie (granted, without any documentation) that psychiatric evaluation and counselling are needed. And yet the phony assertion that a choice is somehow "harmful" - without any argument put forward in support - is frequently used to deny people choice. Edited by ringo, : Splling.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
onifre Member (Idle past 2981 days) Posts: 4854 From: Dark Side of the Moon Joined: |
Of course. But meant in the nicest way possible. *double pistols*
So if further research leads to the conclusion that surgery can be demonstrated to be successful in some cases you would support surgery in those cases. Right? This should be about what works for the individual shouldn't it? It shouldn't be about whether you or I can conceive of a situation where we would want our dicks surgically removed. Of course. It was never about whether I can conceive of it or not, it was simply a concern that the best interest of an indivudual was not being served by having such a drastic surgery.
I fear that until we understand the human brain a lot better than we do now all we are going to get on these sorts of subjects is "conflicting views" and lots of prejudiced assertions. This whole debate could have started and ended with that position right there. I will further say, until such time as the brain is fully understood, or better understood perhaps I should say, performing such a surgery should not be allowed. Because, as some evidence has shown, it can in fact make the person worse than before. It seems by the evidence that that is the case in the majority of cases, except for the very few where it may have benefited. So given this, which side do you stand on? Currently... pro or against? - Oni
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Straggler Member (Idle past 96 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
Oni writes: So given this, which side do you stand on? Currently... pro or against? Like I said to CS I don't have any objection in principle. On the basis of the evidence it seems unlikely to have the desired effect. But it might do in some cases. So I would suggest that surgery should be seen as a last resort and only contemplated after other options have been exhausted and after making absolutely sure that the person in question knows all the risks and issues that the evidence brings to light.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Oni writes:
Me too - but skepticism apparently isnit allowed here. I remain skeptical. [not sure where to put this, so I'll reply to the person who's least likely to jeer me ] I was wondering last night how often the medical establishment looks for a surgical solution to a non-physical problem. I was also wondering how often it takes one doctor to diagnose the problem and a completely different one to fix it.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
subbie Member (Idle past 1285 days) Posts: 3509 Joined: |
Again, not being personally familiar with the phenomenon, I'm only repeating what I've picked up here and there. But my understanding is that often the issue has nothing to do with how society treats them, but with how they view themselves, their own body image.
Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate Howling about evidence is a conversation stopper, and it never stops to think if the claim could possibly be true -- foreveryoung
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
subbie writes:
I asked somebody before and I don't think I got an answer: Where does that self-image come from? I'm guessing that there's a social component.
But my understanding is that often the issue has nothing to do with how society treats them, but with how they view themselves, their own body image.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
subbie Member (Idle past 1285 days) Posts: 3509 Joined: |
I imagine it's like just about every other aspect of human psychology and a mix of a lot of things.
Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate Howling about evidence is a conversation stopper, and it never stops to think if the claim could possibly be true -- foreveryoung
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
New Cat's Eye Inactive Member
|
I have to admit BIID does seem like something that is comparable to sexual re-assignment in the context of this debate. I've been doing some reading, and I'm having second thoughts. BIID is a psycological disorder and amputation is not offered as a treatment. Transexualism is trying to be distanced from being classified as a psycological disorder, they're gonna refer to Gender Idendity Disorder as Gender Dysphoria instead, and sexual reassignment surgery is currently used as a treatment. I guess it boils down to: If you're crazy then we ain't gonna cut on you, but transsexuals are sane.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
onifre Member (Idle past 2981 days) Posts: 4854 From: Dark Side of the Moon Joined: |
So I would suggest that surgery should be seen as a last resort and only contemplated after other options have been exhausted and after making absolutely sure that the person in question knows all the risks and issues that the evidence brings to light. But given that, as the evidence shows, the majority of cases end up being worse, and only in a small number of cases it might be a positive thing. Shouldn't the final determination be at the discretion of a doctor, and not up to the individual? I mean, how can someone make such a determination when even the experts can't figure it out? - Oni
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
onifre Member (Idle past 2981 days) Posts: 4854 From: Dark Side of the Moon Joined: |
Me too - but skepticism apparently isnit allowed here. It seems like we got them to come around.
I was wondering last night how often the medical establishment looks for a surgical solution to a non-physical problem. Anytime it can buy the doctors an new sports car. - Oni
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Straggler Member (Idle past 96 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined:
|
Straggler writes: So I would suggest that surgery should be seen as a last resort and only contemplated after other options have been exhausted and after making absolutely sure that the person in question knows all the risks and issues that the evidence brings to light. Oni writes: But given that, as the evidence shows, the majority of cases end up being worse, and only in a small number of cases it might be a positive thing. Shouldn't the final determination be at the discretion of a doctor, and not up to the individual? A doctor, a psychologist and the individual in question ALL need to be thoroughly involved in the decision. As I understand it gender re-assignment surgery isn't done lightly. It involves all the expertise the medical profession can muster and some fairly stringent requirements of the patient in order to prove their seriousness. What we need here is more knowledge about the condition and what works and what doesn't.
Oni writes: I mean, how can someone make such a determination when even the experts can't figure it out? I don't think anyone is suggesting that simply rocking up and requesting that ones penis is removed, because that is what the individual in question has decided, should be considered a viable option. The question is whether or not such surgery is ever justified. Do you accept that in some cases it is justified? Or not?
|
|
|
Do Nothing Button
Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved
Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024