Gay\transgender -- not by genetics, not by upbringing, not by choice

When you show me that there is any similar basis for your notion of "incorrectly assigned race" to the following I'll take it more seriously: Until then I'll just treat it as a false comparison. Then gender surgery to correct gender problems....?

You make it sound like the decision for surgery is based on a conversation like this:Patient: I want a sex change. I'm desperate. I'll kill myself if you don't do it.Doctor: Oh go on then. Drop your trousers....But in reality the patient has to live entirely as a member of the sex they want to change to for up to two years (I think minimum 1 year in the UK) and even this stage is preceded by years of psychological and medical assessments. So the picture you are painting is just false. And you know it. I think you are taking a simplistic approach. Frankly you seem to have some sort of disbelief that transgenderism is a genuine medical condition and have then set-off to find reasons why surgery shouldn't be allowed based on this predetermined view. Well there seem to be a lot of testimonials from happy sex changees and the the studies done on psychological after effects seem to indicate that it is the success of the operation that determines how happy or troubled the patient is afterwards. LinkSo you could argue that better operations are the key to transsexual success. No?

I'm really not sure which part of this you are disputing:

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In the first of its kind, Zhou et al. (1995) found that in a region of the brain called the bed nucleus of the stria terminalis (BSTc), a region known for sex and anxiety responses, MTF transsexuals have a female-normal size while FTM transsexuals have a male-normal size.

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Are there regions of the brain that correspond to racial identity in the same way that there are regions of the brain related to sexual identity? Actually I've put forward brain structure as the cause and it is you who has "run like the wind" from even attempting to confront the evidence for that.In fact if we follow the bizarre logic of your argument people who want cosmetic surgery on their eyes should be seeking brain surgery instead.......

Let's just say hypothetically that we could download a mind and upload it, once only, into whatever designed-for purpose-blank-brained-body the person in question chose.Transsexuals would choose a body of the opposite sex to the one they were born with.Would you object to this hypothetical solution to gender identity issues?I am trying to gauge whether it is surgery you are are objecting to or if you are just opposed to the entire idea of transsexualism period.

But is there something wrong with the brain?Or is there a mind-body mismatch?

So do you accept that there is a mind body mismatch or not?How would you answer the hypothetical I put forward in Message 220

So basically you are just denying that brain structure is a cause of transgenderism? You really need to read the link I keep referring you to. Link

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In the first of its kind, Zhou et al. (1995) found that in a region of the brain called the bed nucleus of the stria terminalis (BSTc), a region known for sex and anxiety responses, MTF transsexuals have a female-normal size while FTM transsexuals have a male-normal size. While the transsexuals studied had taken hormones, this was accounted for by including non-transsexual male and female controls which, for a variety of medical reasons, had experienced hormone reversal. The controls still retained sizes typical for their gender. No relationship to sexual orientation was found.

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In a followup study, Kruijver et al. (2000) looked at the number of neurons in BSTc instead of volumes. They found the same results as Zhou et al. (1995), but with even more dramatic differences. One MTF subject who had never gone on hormones was also included, and who matched up with the female neuron counts nonetheless.

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In 2002, a followup study by Chung, De Vries, and Swaab found that significant sexual dimorphism (variation between sexes) in BSTc did not become established until adulthood. Chung et al. theorized that either changes in fetal hormone levels produce changes in BSTc synaptic density, neuronal activity, or neurochemical content which later lead to size and neuron count changes in BSTc, or that the size of BSTc is affected by the failure to generate a gender identity consistent with one's anatomic sex.

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In a review of the evidence in 2006, Gooren confirms the earlier research as supporting the concept that transsexualism is a sexual differentiation disorder of the sex dimorphic brain.[23] Swaab (2004) concurs.

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So do you have comparable evidence of there being Westerners brain characteristics in Oriental bodies or whatever other bizarre comparison it is you want to make?No. I didn't think so. Ideally I'd give transsexuals the sort of option I detailed in Message 220Given that you sidestepped considering that hypothetical I am not really sure what your point is here or what solution you would support beyond everyone loving themselves and everyone else for who they are. Which is lovely in a 'world peace' kinda way but probably not gonna happen any time soon....

I can summarise in my own words if you would prefer but you might want to look up 'gender dysphoria' Link

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Many transgender people and researchers support the declassification of GID as a mental disorder for several reasons. Recent medical research on the brain structures of transgender individuals have shown that some transgender individuals have the physical brain structures that resemble their desired sex even before hormone treatment. In addition, recent studies are indicating more possible causes for gender dysphoria, stemming from genetic reasons and prenatal exposure to hormones, as well as other psychological and behavioral reasons.

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One contemporary treatment for GID consists primarily of physical modifications to bring the body into harmony with one's perception of mental (psychological, emotional) gender identity, rather than vice versa.

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Basically it means one's gender identity doesn't match one's physical sex.

This thread isn't about homosexuality.

Fair point.

I've cited the evidence based conclusions of the researchers in the field.But apparently you know better.I've also put forward a hypothetical idealised solution to see if you are objecting to surgery or simply denying that transsexualism is an issue of gender identity.You won't engage on that front either. Female brain characteristics in male bodies and vice versa. What are you suggesting the cause of transsexualism is and how are you proposing it be treated?

Are you asking how we can identify female brain characteristics in male bodies? (or vice versa)Or are you asking how we establish what gender one internally identifies with?

Do you dispute the evidence based conclusions of researchers in the field that I have cited? If so - On what evidential basis do you dispute these conclusions?Don't bother replying to this post if you won't explicitly answer that question. I'm not asking you about flying pigs. I'm asking you if your objection here is to surgery or if you would object, technology allowing, to the sort of non-surgical methods of body transformation I hypothetically proposed too. I want to know exactly what it is you are objecting to here. That is what my hypothetical scenario is aimed at discerning. Only you know why you want to avoid confronting that distinction.Would you object to the hypothetical treatment detailed in Message 220 or not? If you want the biochemical interractions of synapses or somesuch you are going to have to investigate more deeply than asking people on a debate board. I know that feelings of euphoria can be caused by seratonin in the brain but I don't know the "mechanism" in the deeply technical sense you seem to be demanding. Likewise I don't know the technical mechanism that connects gender specific brain characteristics with a desire to physically be that sex. But why do you think such technicalities are relevant here? You may find it "pretentious". But many transsexuals and those researchers in the field whose conclusions you dismiss disagree with you. They consider it highly relevant. Because it is having a damaging effect on people. And if they remain deeply troubled by "who they are" because who they are in their mind and who they are physicially doesn't match then what?It's all very well preaching peace and love as an answer to all ills but what do you do when the feelings of gender dysphoria under consideration have a physiological basis in the brain rather than being the purely cultural phenomenon your "Let's just be nice to one another" approach might be able to solve?Do you really think peace and love will resolve an identity mismatch issue based on brain physiology? Or are you denying, in spite of the evidence to the contrary, that brain physiology has any role in transsexualism?Which is it?