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Author | Topic: Scriptural evidence that Jesus is Messiah: | |||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
jaywill writes:
So we're back to square one. You've decided that Jesus is the son of God, so when he deliberately set out to make himself look like a fulfilment of prophecy, it really was a fulfilment of prophecy. Your reasoning is still perfectly circular.
I do believe that Jesus deliberately did something to fulfill and confirm the prophecy. I don't think there was anything "phony" about. jaywill writes:
Well, that's what this thread is for. Roll 'em out. Instead of wasting everybody's time with prophecies that aren't prophecies and prophecies that Jesus deliberately fulfilled, let's get to the good ones. Give us an example of an actual prohecy about the Messiah that was actually fulfilled by Jesus without him having to do anything. The stipulation that you are demanding, is ALSO evidenced in Scripture. Edited by ringo, : Spellng.
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jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
I'm sorry but simply continuing to quote mine has very little worth or impact.
God gave me a brain and I imagine Her intent was that I use my brain. I can read. I do not have to resort to taking the contents out of context.Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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jaywill Member (Idle past 1971 days) Posts: 4519 From: VA USA Joined: |
So now I will consider the rest of the passage:
quote: Certainly this corresponds to the millennial kingdom, the restoration of the broken down tabernacle of David. How can I possibly doubt that Christ's second coming will be accompanied by these things ? Of course they will accompany Him establishing His kingdom reigning from Jerusalem in the millennial kingdom.
quote: Passages like this accompany the teaching of a millinnial kingdom in several places. Christ is also the center of these blessings. He taught so. His already fulfillment of many prophecies give us confidence that He will follow through on these as well.
quote: You can't see that that has Jesus written all over it ?
quote: We know He hates robbery. But since Christ's offering Himself on the cross we see that God prefers this final consummate offering to all the bulls and goats. In comparison, the reality of God incarnate as the offering, makes that symbolic offerings even hateful in comparison. I don't know why you cannot see Jesus the Son of God written all over these words as well.
quote: I definitely count Jesus Christ as the center of all these Messianic prophecies. He has demonstrated the approvedness which inspires hope. As He has done faithfully, He will again continue to do. As He rose from the dead, He cannot fail to complete the other aspects of His work.
quote: All this is display of human virtues apply to Jesus too. He is God and man mingled. So those human attributes He certainly shares with us. At the same time He is God who manifests divine attributes.
Revelation 19:5 - "And a voice came out of the throne saying, Praise our God, all His slaves and those who fear Him, the small and the great." This could be the throne of the God - Man coming out of the throne of God. He is refering to His human part which is akin with us - "Praise OUR God ...". Remember in resurrection this man said " ... go to My brothers and say to them, I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God." (John 20:17) These verses may refer to the Son of God as He is God yet shares also our humanity.
quote: Nothing here excludes the utterances from refering to the Son of God. And the reference to righteousness springing up indicates this is all a matter of divine life growing. And that is what Christ is all about. That is dispensing divine and eternal life into man that His impartation may spring up in the saved being righteous too as a matter of union with the Father. Extending the quotation has not done any damage as I can see to the prophecy being about Jesus.
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jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Sorry but anything that might happen in the future is by definition, unfulfilled.
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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jaywill Member (Idle past 1971 days) Posts: 4519 From: VA USA Joined: |
So we're back to square one. You've decided that Jesus is the son of God, so when he deliberately set out to make himself look like a fulfilment of prophecy, it really was a fulfilment of prophecy. Your reasoning is still perfectly circular. Let's be serious now. I am not the only one here who has DECIDED on what they WANT to believe. For the years I have participated in this Forum what makes you think you have displayed some pristine objectivity as if you have no vested interest ? Besides, when it comes to the reality of God Himself, circularity is ultimately unavoidable.
"Thus says Jehovah the King of Israel ... I am the First and I am the Last, And apart from Me there is no God." (Isaiah 44:6) " ... and He placed His right hand on me, saying, Do not fear, I am the First and the Last ..." (Rev. 1:17) "And He said to me, they have come to pass. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. " (Rev. 21:6) Since God is the ground of being and the ultimate meaning of being - He is the Beginning of reality and the consummate End of it also - the First and the Last. Some circularity is unavoidable. For reality has its source in God and ends in God too eventually.
quote: I am not wasting my time. I am not wasting the time of some truth seekers by exposing some weak reasons to reject Christ as "God with us". As for your additional request. If I did, I am pretty sure you would "roll out" your objections to believing in the Son of God on those grounds just as much. Sure you would. You probably have your objections all lined up and ready to go. I think your zero sum game is to team up with your other regular career skeptics and try your best to eliminate all and any reasons for taking Christ at His word. Why posture some phony objectivity? I have no problem with Jesus being with us is "God with us." Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
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jaywill Member (Idle past 1971 days) Posts: 4519 From: VA USA Joined: |
Sorry but anything that might happen in the future is by definition, unfulfilled. That's true. Let's stick with Emmanuel. It is at least certain that SINCE Jesus was born, no OTHER human has come closer to quaify for the candidacy of being "God with us." Shall I count your refusal to acknowledge God with us as the failure of Christ to fulfill prophecy? I don't consider your disdain to acknowledging Christ as "God with us" as His failure. I regard your withholding that praise and that calling as the prerogative of your disbelief, and nothing more interesting than that.
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Dawn Bertot Member (Idle past 112 days) Posts: 3571 Joined: |
I am not wasting my time. You aint just whistling dixie boy. Ive never read one of your posts that was a waste of time. They (Jar) and others coud not handle the logical approach t this topic, now they cannot handle the scriptural one. Keep up the good work Dawn Bertot
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
jaywill writes:
So we can disregard your denial that you're thinking in circles.
Some circularity is unavoidable. jaywill writes:
So, in other words, you're not going to back up your claim. As for your additional request. If I did, I am pretty sure you would "roll out" your objections to believing in the Son of God on those grounds just as much. Sure you would. You probably have your objections all lined up and ready to go. FYI, I have no preconceived objections because I have no idea what examples you would offer.
jaywill writes:
I don't think I've said anything about objectivity in this thread. I've pointed out the circularity of your thinking, which you finally admitted, and I've asked you to back up the claims you made. Why posture some phony objectivity? Instead of taking potshots at my motvations, why don't you make a decent case for fulfilled prophecy?
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jaywill Member (Idle past 1971 days) Posts: 4519 From: VA USA Joined: |
Now I ask:
Who do you think the prediction of "God with us" really refers to? Second question: If we asked that person to compare their lives with the life of Jesus Christ, do you honestly think they would claim for themselves that they were MORE qualified to be called "God with us" than Jesus ? What Jewish prophet or king or hero between the time of Isaiah's writing and Christ's birth would you assume could look down at Jesus and say - "Well, I think that I am more a likely recipient of that title "God with us" than this Jesus person." Names ?
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jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Which is still not fulfilled prophecy. Jesus was not named Immanuel.
In addition, when Isaiah is taken in context it becomes very clear that the child being spoken of as being named Immanuel is NOT someone that would be born hundreds of years later but rather someone who would be born and grow up within a decade of the prophecy.Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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jaywill Member (Idle past 1971 days) Posts: 4519 From: VA USA Joined: |
quote: I didn't deny that that complaint could conceivably be made. If you would be honest you would admit that you come with a priori convictions just as much. Actually, the thinking here is linear that a man called Jesus so far has acted as God being with us as no other man yet has. And I know that Emmanuel He has been praised as and called. These callers mostly just said Amen to what was written. He is indeed "God with us". I think that that is sufficiently linear thinking. Let's say that by "God" we mean all that has been revealed before in the Old Testament. There is no problem with "us" I think. But we can start with the assumption that "God" is meant what Isaiah knew as God.
quote: My intrance into this discussion, I think, was just in reaction to some talk about Isaiah's prophecy. I never said I was promising a truck load of fulfilled prophecies. I have not been on the forum in a while. I think I just jumped in to this discussion when I noticed some things I wanted to say about exchanges on the Isaiah prophecy. There is no rule that I cannot participate UNLESS I have many many examples of fulfilled prophecies. That is a rule you are trying to impose upon me.
quote: I have backed up my claims that an objection to Christ being a candidate for the fulfillment of Isaiah 7 is not that far fetched. I believe it. I think what is being demonstrated here is some people's talent for missing the point. That is some people's tendency to strain out a gnat and swallow a camel. "Well, the prophecy said SHE will call. But Matthew said THEY will call." Okay. But isn't that kind of straining out the gnat and missing the point? This man healed the sick, raised the dead, was righteous to an extraordinary degree, was confessed as someone/s Lord and God, rose Himself from death (no mean feat mind you), and spoke words which have shattered human culture for two millennia. Songs about Him praise Him as Emmanuel. I don't suggest you jump on the bandwagon just to do so. But I think the objections raised about the prophecy are nit picky. And again, I do not regard someone's proud and rebellions refusal to call Him Emmanuel as a failure on Christ's part. Maybe you'd rather NOT God be with us.Maybe you'd prefer there be no God at all, let alone one "with us." I don't count these attitudes as a failure on Jesus's part to fulfill the prophecy. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
jaywill writes:
Whether or not I have preconceived notions about the fulfilment of prophecy is irrelevant to anything I've said in this thread. All I've done is point out the errors in your logic. I'd do the same thing if I agreed with your conclusion.
If you would be honest you would admit that you come with a priori convictions just as much. jaywill writes:
You said you could provide examples of fulfilled prophecies that weren't contrived. When you walk into a discussion and make claims about the topic, there is some reasonable expectation that you will back up those claims.
I never said I was promising a truck load of fulfilled prophecies. jaywill writes:
"Not that far-fetched" is a far cry from "fulfilled". Bigfoot is not that far-fetched.
I have backed up my claims that an objection to Christ being a candidate for the fulfillment of Isaiah 7 is not that far fetched. I believe it. jaywill writes:
Not at all. That is the point, exactly. The subject of the prophecy was to be named Immanuel. Whether he would fit your requirements for "God with us" doesn't matter. There have been plenty of people in history named Immanuel who didn't live up to the name. "Well, the prophecy said SHE will call. But Matthew said THEY will call." Okay. But isn't that kind of straining out the gnat and missing the point? The meaning of the name Immanuel isn't particularly relevant. A lot of Jewish names refer to God. That doesn't mean that anybody and everybody with "god" in his name is the Messiah. Nor does it mean that somebody who acted like God with us has anything to do with the prophecy.
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jaywill Member (Idle past 1971 days) Posts: 4519 From: VA USA Joined: |
quote: You've pointed out nothing of the kind to me. It is certainly reasonable to count Jesus as having fulfilled Isaiah 6:14.
quote: No I didn't. Quote me where I used the word "contrived."
quote: I did back up the claims with reasonable evidences that Jesus was called and actually is Emmanuel. Right now, I am busy demontrating that some people's claim of the unfulfillment of by Jesus of Isaiah 7:14 is nothing more than skeptical bias. They try to pawn off their skepticism as the failure of Jesus. Their skepticism about the subject is not that reliable. You said above something like plenty of people have been refered to as God with us. Perhaps a few have. But you have in the prophecy a sign of a virgin being with child. Put the two predictions together and I think Jesus Christ is your best fulfiller of the prophecy. Again, Wesley's very popular 18th century song says in verse two -
"Pleased as man with man to dwell, Jesus our Immanuel" Conceded, no record of Mary addressing her child as Immanuel. Are you expecting someone ELSE to come along -1.) born of a virgin, 2.) believed upon and sung of as our Immanuel. Halle Salasi was believed by some to be God.Farard, alledged founder of the Nation of Islam, was taught to be God. Neither was taught to be born of a virgin as Isaiah 7:14's "sign" predicted. And I don't think either one of these two acted in a manner rivaling the character and deeds of Jesus.
quote: That's a point. However, the prophecy did not specify exactly WHEN she would call the child Immanuel. It is entirely possible that she called Him Emmanuel sometime after He was perhaps 30 years of age. How can you prove that the prophecy means the child is called Emmanuel at the time of birth ?
quote: I disagree. The Bible is not like the predictions of Nostradamus. The Bible prophecy is not about predicting willy nilly curiosities like UFO sightings. They have a spiritual and moral relevance. I think your view of Bible prophecy is shallow as if God has nothing to do but tickle our curiosity with tricks and funny predictions. If you want those kind of "prophecies" to debunk then you should go to the predictions of Jean Dixon or Nostradamus or perhaps some astrologers and secret code hunters. He gave you a VIRGIN BIRTH in the coming of Christ. Morally and spiritually He manifests God if anyone ever did. Are you really going from this to gloat that no passage in the NT records Mary calling Him Immanuel ? It appears to me like grasping for excuses to deny that God was ever with us.
quote: I agree with this. There are many names with - el as God in them. C'mon. There is one man who was born of a virgin. Just going by the record of the New Testament - we are about 50% there. Plus we have Jesus called Emmanuel by loving Christians. Plus you have Him acting as you would expect God to act if He became a man - full of righteousness, holiness, truth, power, resurrection from death. You say "But that's not important." Sure it is. And I might add that even in the fulfillment of prophecy God reserves a little space so that one still has to exercise some faith. This is the difference between God wanting to do some tricks to tickle human curiosity and God seeking to gain your heart of trust and love that He could give His Spirit into you. You "Just the mechanics is all that is important." Those are your priorities. It seems sometimes that you are looking for the "proof" of an unbeliever in the Son of God confessing the Son of God. That, on this side of the last judgement, you may never get.
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jaywill Member (Idle past 1971 days) Posts: 4519 From: VA USA Joined: |
Isaiah 7:14 says the child is born and the mother will call His name Emmanuel. It doesn't have to mean the two events happened on the same day or even in the same year.
It just says she will call Him that. And Matthew modifies it somehwhat that "THEY" will call Him that. I see no failed prophecy here. I admit that strictly speaking we don't see her calling Him Emmanuel at birth or latter. But the prophecy is that it would be done. The prophecy is not that this physical act of calling Him Emmanuel would be recorded in the New Testament. Thankfully, the virgin birth part was recorded in the New Testament. I think we should run with Jesus being the fulfillment of the prophecy. Fifty percent of the details are recorded. The rest certainly can be gathered by safe assumption. Look at Thomas and Peter as typical disciples each refering to Jesus as their God. Copied without permission from Bible Questions Answered | GotQuestions.org which I think is helpful:
In the prophecy of the virgin birth, Isaiah 7:14, the prophet Isaiah declared, "Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call Him Immanuel." This prophecy refers to the birth of Jesus in Matthew 1:22-23, "All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet: 'The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel' which means, 'God with us.'" This does not mean, however, that the Messiah’s name would actually be Immanuel. There are many names given to Jesus using the phrase He shall be called, both in the Old and New Testaments. This was a common way of saying that people would refer to Him in these various ways. Isaiah prophesied of the Messiah, His name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace (Isaiah 9:6). None of these titles was Jesus’ actual name, but these were descriptions people would use to refer to Him forever. Luke tells us Jesus shall be called the Son of the Highest (Luke 1:32) and son of God (1:35) and the prophet of the Highest (1:76), but none of these was His name. In two different places, the prophet Jeremiah says in referring to the coming Messiah, And this is His name by which He shall be called, JEHOVAH, OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS (Jeremiah 23:5-6; 33:15-16). Now we know that God, the Father, is named Jehovah. Jesus was never actually called Jehovah as though it was His name, but His role was that of bringing the righteousness of Jehovah to those who would believe in Him, exchanging that righteousness for our sin (2 Corinthians 5:21). Therefore, this is one of the many titles or names which belong to Him. In the same way, to say that Jesus would be called "Immanuel" means Jesus is God and that He dwelt among us in His incarnation and that He is always with us. Jesus was God in the flesh. Jesus was God making His dwelling among us (John 1:1,14). No, Jesus' name was not Immanuel, but Jesus was the meaning of Immanuel, "God with us." Immanuel is one of the many titles for Jesus, a description of who He is. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
jaywill writes:
Don't try to weasel out like that. "Contrived" was my word and you responded to it. In Message 149, you said:
Quote me where I used the word "contrived." jaywill writes:
I think it's reasonable to expect you to provide an example.
ringo writes:
We have examples of BOTH in the Bible. Ideally, a prophecy should be fulfilled by somebody who's never heard of the prophecy - a double-blind system. jaywill writes:
The thread is about scriptural evidence. Unless you have scripture where Mary called Jesus Immanuel, its just wild speulation.
However, the prophecy did not specify exactly WHEN she would call the child Immanuel. It is entirely possible that she called Him Emmanuel sometime after He was perhaps 30 years of age. jaywill writes:
Think again. I've said in this very thread that prophecy is often/usually about dire consequnces.
I think your view of Bible prophecy is shallow as if God has nothing to do but tickle our curiosity with tricks and funny predictions. jaywill writes:
Why must you always resort to personal attacks? Nothing that I've said in this thread has anything to do with whether or not I believe in God or whether or not I believe Jesus was the son of God. All I've done is point out where your reading of the Bible is wrong.
It appears to me like grasping for excuses to deny that God was ever with us. jaywill writes:
As I've already mentioned, that's a point against your claim, not for. It's circular. If he was called Immanuel by somebody who didn't love him, that would be impressive. Plus we have Jesus called Emmanuel by loving Christians. And I'll remind you again that the thread requires scriptural evdence.
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