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Author Topic:   Scriptural evidence that Jesus is Messiah:
Archangel
Member (Idle past 844 days)
Posts: 134
Joined: 09-09-2009


(2)
Message 1 of 304 (644514)
12-18-2011 3:57 PM


Messianic Prophecy: What Is It?
Messianic prophecy is the collection of over 100 predictions (a conservative estimate) in the Old Testament about the future Messiah of the Jewish people. These predictions were written by multiple authors, in numerous books, over approximately 1,000 years. Messianic Prophecy is so dramatic today, because with the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls and the reliability of the Septuagint version of the Old Testament (both of which have been proven to exist prior to the time Jesus walked on the earth) you can be assured that these prophecies were not conspired after-the-fact.

Messianic Prophecy: Fulfillment by Jesus Christ
Messianic prophecy was fulfilled by the Messiah, Jesus Christ. Although many Jews did not accept Jesus as their Messiah, many did, and they became the Jewish sect later known as the Christians. Christianity, based in dramatic part on the fulfillment of historical prophecy, spread rapidly throughout the Roman Empire of the 1st Century. Examine the prophecies yourself, and calculate the probability of one man fulfilling just a handful of the most specific ones, and youll be amazed.

Jesus said to them, This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms. Luke 24:44 (NIV)

The Old Testament verses are the prophecy; the New Testament verses proclaim the fulfillment. Check them all out for yourself!

Born of a virgin (Isaiah 7:14; Matthew 1:21-23)
A descendant of Abraham (Genesis 12:1-3; 22:18; Matthew 1:1; Galatians 3:16)
Of the tribe of Judah (Genesis 49:10; Luke 3:23, 33; Hebrews 7:14)
Of the house of David (2 Samuel 7:12-16; Matthew 1:1)
Born in Bethlehem (Micah 5:2, Matthew 2:1; Luke 2:4-7)
Taken to Egypt (Hosea 11:1; Matthew 2:14-15)
Herods killing of the infants (Jeremiah 31:15; Matthew 2:16-18)
Anointed by the Holy Spirit (Isaiah 11:2; Matthew 3:16-17)
Heralded by the messenger of the Lord (John the Baptist) (Isaiah 40:3-5; Malachi 3:1; Matthew 3:1-3)
Would perform miracles (Isaiah 35:5-6; Matthew 9:35)
Would preach good news (Isaiah 61:1; Luke 4:14-21)
Would minister in Galilee (Isaiah 9:1; Matthew 4:12-16)
Would cleanse the Temple (Malachi 3:1; Matthew 21:12-13)
Would first present Himself as King 173,880 days from the decree to rebuild Jerusalem (Daniel 9:25; Matthew 21:4-11)
Would enter Jerusalem as a king on a donkey (Zechariah 9:9; Matthew 21:4-9)
Would be rejected by Jews (Psalm 118:22; I Peter 2:7)
Die a humiliating death (Psalm 22; Isaiah 53)
involving:

rejection (Isaiah 53:3; John 1:10-11; 7:5,48)
betrayal by a friend (Psalm 41:9; Luke 22:3-4; John 13:18)
sold for 30 pieces of silver (Zechariah 11:12; Matthew 26:14-15)
silence before His accusers (Isaiah 53:7; Matthew 27:12-14)
being mocked (Psalm 22: 7-8; Matthew 27:31)
beaten (Isaiah 52:14; Matthew 27:26)
spit upon (Isaiah 50:6; Matthew 27:30)
piercing His hands and feet (Psalm 22:16; Matthew 27:31)
being crucified with thieves (Isaiah 53:12; Matthew 27:38)
praying for His persecutors (Isaiah 53:12; Luke 23:34)
piercing His side (Zechariah 12:10; John 19:34)
given gall and vinegar to drink (Psalm 69:21, Matthew 27:34, Luke 23:36)
no broken bones (Psalm 34:20; John 19:32-36)
buried in a rich mans tomb (Isaiah 53:9; Matthew 27:57-60)
casting lots for His garments (Psalm 22:18; John 19:23-24)
Would rise from the dead!! (Psalm 16:10; Mark 16:6; Acts 2:31)
Ascend into Heaven (Psalm 68:18; Acts 1:9)
Would sit down at the right hand of God (Psalm 110:1; Hebrews 1:3)


Replies to this message:
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 Message 7 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-19-2011 7:24 AM Archangel has not yet responded
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AdminPD
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Message 2 of 304 (644516)
12-18-2011 4:33 PM


Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
Thread copied here from the Scriptural evidence that Jesus is Messiah: thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.
  
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 3 of 304 (644517)
12-18-2011 4:41 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Archangel
12-18-2011 3:57 PM


Let's look at them in order.
You claim that Isaiah 7:14 is a prophecy of Jesus but if you look at it in context it is obvious that it is not.

quote:
14Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

15Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good.

16For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.


It's obvious that Isaiah is speak of what will happen immediately. Further Jesus was not named Immanuel.

So one of them down and shown to be false.

There is a bigger issue.

Scriptural support that Jesus is divine or the Messiah is about as valid as the Star Wars tales providing evidence that Darth Vader really is Luke Skywalker's father.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Archangel, posted 12-18-2011 3:57 PM Archangel has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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PaulK
Member
Posts: 14747
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 4 of 304 (644518)
12-18-2011 4:52 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Archangel
12-18-2011 3:57 PM


quote:

Messianic prophecy is the collection of over 100 predictions (a conservative estimate) in the Old Testament about the future Messiah of the Jewish people.

Presumably "a conservative estimate" means "an estimate made by conservative Christians". Because I doubt that you would get a number that high counting definite Messianic prophecies.

Have you actually checked any of these yourself ? Carefully read them in context ? Investigated further rather than just assuming that the NT accounts are true ?

For instance, to start with your first example:

quote:

Born of a virgin (Isaiah 7:14; Matthew 1:21-23)

The child of Isaiah 7 is to be born to show that the attacks from Israel and Aram will continue for only a few more years (Isaiah 7:16). Jesus is born a few hundred years too late for that. Even the "virgin" birth is based on a dubious translation - and nobody claims a virgin birth at the right time, the reign of Ahaz.

Edited by PaulK, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
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Jon
Inactive Member


Message 5 of 304 (644519)
12-18-2011 5:03 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Archangel
12-18-2011 3:57 PM


Descendant of Abraham
A descendant of Abraham (Genesis 12:1-3; 22:18;

The passages in question have nothing to do with a messiah:

quote:
Genesis 12:13 (NRSV):

Now the Lord said to Abram, 'Go from your country and your kindred and your father's house to the land that I will show you. I will make of you a great nation, and I will bless you, and make your name great, so that you will be a blessing. I will bless those who bless you, and the one who curses you I will curse; and in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.'


quote:
Genesis 22:18 (NRSV):

and by your offspring shall all the nations of the earth gain blessing for themselves, because you have obeyed my voice.'


Those words are directed toward Abraham. In neither of the passages is there anything mentioned about one of Abraham's descendants being a messiah.

Two down, many to go.

Jon


Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Archangel, posted 12-18-2011 3:57 PM Archangel has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 6 of 304 (644520)
12-18-2011 5:08 PM


Genesis 12 1-3
Genesis 12 1-3 is your next supposed prophecy.

Let's look at it.

quote:
Genesis 12

1Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:

2And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:

3And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.


Sorry, nothing there related to Jesus and in fact, it is talking about Abram; note it says " 3And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed." It says that it is talking directly about Abram.

It's obvious that it is speaking of what will happen immediately; it is speaking about what Abram should do right then.

So two of them down and shown to be false.

There is a bigger issue.

Scriptural support that Jesus is divine or the Messiah is about as valid as the Star Wars tales providing evidence that Darth Vader really is Luke Skywalker's father.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16085
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 10.0


Message 7 of 304 (644568)
12-19-2011 7:24 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Archangel
12-18-2011 3:57 PM


Born in Bethlehem (Micah 5:2, Matthew 2:1; Luke 2:4-7)

But if you look at Micah 5, it clearly isn't about Jesus:

But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting. [...] And this man shall be the peace, when the Assyrian shall come into our land: and when he shall tread in our palaces, then shall we raise against him seven shepherds, and eight principal men. And they shall waste the land of Assyria with the sword, and the land of Nimrod in the entrances thereof: thus shall he deliver us from the Assyrian, when he cometh into our land, and when he treadeth within our borders.

Now Jesus was not a ruler in Israel, Israel was not invaded by Assyrians during Jesus' time; nor did Jesus deliver Israel from the Assyrians who weren't actually there, by wasting the land of Assyria with the sword or otherwise.

Clearly Micah was expecting someone else altogether to turn up out of Bethlehem and to do something completely different from what Jesus is said to have done.


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Modulous
Member (Idle past 177 days)
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


(1)
Message 8 of 304 (644605)
12-19-2011 1:08 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Archangel
12-18-2011 3:57 PM


The people that wrote about Jesus' life specifics did so after he was alive. Jesus was said to be alive after the OT 'messianic prophecies'.

The writers of the Gospels were motivated to persuade people about facts about Jesus. Some of them wanted (especially Matthew if memory serves) to portray Jesus as a Messiah. In order for them persuade people of this, it would be trivial to read through the Old Testament and try to include in the account of Jesus, as many things as they could get away with.

The only interesting fulfillment of prophecy are those that cannot be simply claimed by the Gospel Authors. Let us say that the coming Messiah would be heralded with

quote:
Herods killing of the infants

I don't think this is prophesied by Jerimiah 31, as you claim. But if it was, this is a definite historical claim that should be verifiable. Yet nobody else in the world bothers to mention this except for one person trying to sell Jesus decades upon decades after the fact. Does this not strike you as a tad unusual?

being crucified with thieves

On the other hand, even if Isaiah 53:12 claims this (which it does not, it simply says that he 'was numbered with the transgressors') this is something that can easily be invented so as to conform with the supposed prophecy. Whose to say otherwise of a man who was ignored by contemporary writers?


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 346 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


(2)
Message 9 of 304 (659274)
04-14-2012 1:27 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by Modulous
12-19-2011 1:08 PM


I meant to pick up on this one months ago but got busy and forgot

Mod writes

The people that wrote about Jesus' life specifics did so after he was alive. Jesus was said to be alive after the OT 'messianic prophecies'.

I believe the OP said 'scriptural evidence', which would include of course, divine intervention, the supernatural, the miraculous. But of course, without hesitation, the liberal and humanist immediately and automatically eliminates this part of the 'scriptural evidence', from thier evaluation. they then assume they have demonstrated thier point

The liberal or humanist argues (assumes) thusly. The writer of the Old Testament must have been the actual writer of that prophecy. The writer must have been correct concerning the things of which he was speaking. The writer, even thought he claims to have been inspired by God and to speak by thus saith the Lord, he could not actually have been inspired, or was inspired but could not have been refering to Christ

All of these assuances the liberal or humanist either ascribes or assignes to the Old Testament writer, but then with all the power he can muster claims that the writer of the NT must be a fake and a fraude. He does all this concerning the NT writers, but provides no way of distinguishing between his confidence in the Old Testament writer verses the New

IOWs, what is the criteria you are using to know that the Old Testament writer is correct in the first place to know he is not speaking about Christ?

Why does the NT writer not get the same confidence you afford the prophet of old?

Such is the reasoning and life I suppose, that these fellows use in thier determinations

Mod writes

Yet nobody else in the world bothers to mention this except for one person trying to sell Jesus decades upon decades after the fact. Does this not strike you as a tad unusual?

Mod could you provide us with a list of writers/historians besides those in the Gospels, that gave such detail, description and application to the old test prophecies like those mentioned in the NT concerning Christ?

Dont you find it a tad unusual that nearly no one else, or no one elses life could fit such prophcies?

I suppose these first century Christians or writers had plenty of time between persecution and survival

In order for them persuade people of this, it would be trivial to read through the Old Testament and try to include in the account of Jesus, as many things as they could get away with.

Ill wait for the deatailed list by the other historians and writers that attempted such a feat

Its like one muslim fellow that I heard (that had converted to Christianity)speaking to another on a radio program, He said, "If Mohammed is indeed the greatest of all prophets, shouldnt there be some prophecies about him in the Old Testament, atleast something that remotely fits his coming or life"

Hmmm? Good point

Dawn Bertot

Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.

Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.

Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.

Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
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DWIII
Member
Posts: 72
From: United States
Joined: 06-30-2011


(1)
Message 10 of 304 (659291)
04-14-2012 9:04 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by Dawn Bertot
04-14-2012 1:27 AM


Dawn Bertot writes:


The liberal or humanist argues (assumes) thusly. The writer of the Old Testament must have been the actual writer of that prophecy. The writer must have been correct concerning the things of which he was speaking. The writer, even thought he claims to have been inspired by God and to speak by thus saith the Lord, he could not actually have been inspired, or was inspired but could not have been refering to Christ

All of these assuances the liberal or humanist either ascribes or assignes to the Old Testament writer, but then with all the power he can muster claims that the writer of the NT must be a fake and a fraude. He does all this concerning the NT writers, but provides no way of distinguishing between his confidence in the Old Testament writer verses the New

IOWs, what is the criteria you are using to know that the Old Testament writer is correct in the first place to know he is not speaking about Christ?

Why does the NT writer not get the same confidence you afford the prophet of old?

Simple. The New Testament writers invented the dishonest practice of quote-mining.

Do any of your Jewish friends accept that these out-of-context snippets refer specifically to Jesus?


DWIII

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Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16085
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 10.0


Message 11 of 304 (659293)
04-14-2012 9:21 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by Dawn Bertot
04-14-2012 1:27 AM


Possibly instead of lying about what "the liberal or humanist" thinks, you could ask one. Or read this thread, even.

But that wouldn't be like you, would it?

Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.


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jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 12 of 304 (659302)
04-14-2012 10:36 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by Dawn Bertot
04-14-2012 1:27 AM


Chapter and verse please.
If you think that there is even a single Old Testament prophecy that refers to Jesus can you please give us the Chapter and verse so that we can examine it in context?

AbE: To help you get started we have already covered quite a few in "Are any of these prophecies fulfilled by Jesus?".

Edited by jar, : see AbE: Link toi existing thread on the topic.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
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Trixie
Member (Idle past 1778 days)
Posts: 1011
From: Edinburgh
Joined: 01-03-2004


(1)
Message 13 of 304 (659304)
04-14-2012 10:44 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by Dawn Bertot
04-14-2012 1:27 AM


I think you've missed the point of this thread. The OP gives a list of prophesies along with verses which he claims demonstrates them as fulfilled. The discussion centres on whether these NT verses do, in fact, demonstrate fulfillment of said phrophesies.

It's got nothing to do with divine inspiration of OT v NT. It just asks are the claims made in the OP valid. Does the OT prophesy truly refer to the supposed fulfillment passage or event?


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Modulous
Member (Idle past 177 days)
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


(1)
Message 14 of 304 (659308)
04-14-2012 12:51 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Dawn Bertot
04-14-2012 1:27 AM


I meant to pick up on this one months ago but got busy and forgot

No problem.

I believe the OP said 'scriptural evidence', which would include of course, divine intervention, the supernatural, the miraculous.

Yes, we're talking about scripture... a series of writings by various authors.

But of course, without hesitation, the liberal and humanist immediately and automatically eliminates this part of the 'scriptural evidence', from thier evaluation.

I'm happy to consider all of scripture, even non-canonical scripture in this discussion. You presume too much of your opponents.

The thread here seems to be to compare what the Old Testament prophecies regarding the Messiah with the life of Jesus portrayed in the New Testament to see if there is a match and perhaps additionally, what these matches might mean.

The liberal or humanist argues (assumes) thusly. The writer of the Old Testament must have been the actual writer of that prophecy.

I don't care who actually wrote any given prophecy all that much.

All of these assuances the liberal or humanist either ascribes or assignes to the Old Testament writer, but then with all the power he can muster claims that the writer of the NT must be a fake and a fraude

It would be closed minded of us if we refused to consider the possibility that false things were said about Jesus to make it appear as if he had fulfilled some prophecy or another.

IOWs, what is the criteria you are using to know that the Old Testament writer is correct in the first place to know he is not speaking about Christ?

I don't claim to state that I know the OT writer is correct. Why would I do that?

Why does the NT writer not get the same confidence you afford the prophet of old?

If it puts you at ease, I treat them with the same confidence.

Mod could you provide us with a list of writers/historians besides those in the Gospels, that gave such detail, description and application to the old test prophecies like those mentioned in the NT concerning Christ?

For what purpose would I do this?

Dont you find it a tad unusual that nearly no one else, or no one elses life could fit such prophcies?

It's not unusual at all, that a character that was written after some prophecies is described as having fulfilled those prophecies. Especially when the authors are clearly trying to persuade us that a certain person fulfilled certain prophecies.

The question at primarily hand is: Does Jesus actually fit the prophecies for what the Messiah would be like? I'm adding my own interpretation by discussing what this fulfillment, should it exist, really means.

For instance, I find it is very unusual that nobody thought that it was noteworthy that Herod ordered mass infanticide at the time that it happened. If this was prophecied, which I don't think it was, there is significant reason to suppose it was invented so as to be a fulfillment rather than being an actual fulfillment by any real individual.

Ill wait for the deatailed list by the other historians and writers that attempted such a feat

I don't understand what you are waiting for and why you think its relevant.

Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.

Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
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GDR
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Posts: 4782
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


(1)
Message 15 of 304 (659327)
04-15-2012 12:18 AM


I think that in order to understand what Jesus was all about you have to look at what He said in the Gospels that related to the OT, so that we can understand what His understanding was of what He was about. I suggest that if we want to consider the fulfilment of prophesy we have to first consider the question of Jesus' own understanding of the nature of His relationship with the Father.

I think a good place to start is with Jesus with the two on the road to Emmaus. After listening to what the two had to say, Jesus said the following in Luke 24.

quote:
25 He said to them, "How foolish you are, and how slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken! 26 Did not the Christ have to suffer these things and then enter his glory?" 27 And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself.

Jesus obviously saw that all that He was about came from the Hebrew Scriptures, so obviously Jesus believed that through Him God the Father had fulfilled the Scriptures. Jesus continuously refers back to those Scriptures in His teaching and it seems to me fairly obvious that a great deal of His self understanding came through those Scriptures as well as through prayer and the Holy Spirit.

In Matthew 11 John the Baptist asks are you (Jesus) the Expected One or shall we look for someone else. John is referring to Malachi 3.

quote:
1 "See, I will send my messenger, who will prepare the way before me. Then suddenly the Lord you are seeking will come to his temple; the messenger of the covenant, whom you desire, will come," says the LORD Almighty.

Jesus refers John back to Isaiah 35:5-6 and possibly Isaiah 42:7 when He says in Matthew 11

quote:
4 Jesus replied, "Go back and report to John what you hear and see: 5 The blind receive sight, the lame walk, those who have leprosy are cured, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, and the good news is preached to the poor.

He consistently referred to Himself as the Son of Man which obviously goes back to Daniel 7.

I believe that He would have seen Yahwehs time of visitation in what He was doing in the Righteous branch of David as the wise, righteous and just King who will be a shepherd gathering His flock in Jeremiah 23. Jesus often used the image of a Shepherd.

I believe that He understood that His vocation was to fulfill the role of the Suffering Servant in Isaiah chaps 52 & 53. He often referred to His role as a servant and demonstrated it in the foot washing of the disciples. He understood that what He was about to do in Jerusalem was going to lead to suffering. He preached that His message of peace and love of enemy was not going to be a popular one in many circles and would result in suffering for both Him and His followers.

Certainly the early apostles preached Jesus as the Jewish Messiah who was the one prophesied to be the Anointed One of God, as foretold in Isaiah 61:1 which again refers back to Jesus response to John the Baptist.

Edited by GDR, : typo


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


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