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Author Topic:   Can You define God?
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10284
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 106 of 318 (675062)
10-05-2012 1:42 PM
Reply to: Message 105 by jar
10-05-2012 1:30 PM


Re: GOD is NOT a god
What definition of the term "god" are you applying to come to all these assertions?

jar writes:

If GOD exists then it is not a human construct.

Well I could just as legitimately say that if Bilbo Baggins exists then he is not merely a human construction.

jar writes:

All God(s) and god(s) are just human constructs.

Anything defined as unknowable is by definition a human construct (whether it exists or not). How could it possibly be otherwise?

jar writes:

They are different from hobbits because humans designated them a God(s) or god(s).

If humans designated me a god ala 'The Life of Brian' I wouldn't actually be a god would I? Human designation is not the defining criteria here.

jar writes:

It really is that simple.

If you define something as unknowable then it must be imagined because there is no other source you can claim for the notion of it's existence.

It really is that simple.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by jar, posted 10-05-2012 1:30 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by jar, posted 10-05-2012 1:46 PM Straggler has responded
 Message 113 by Phat, posted 10-05-2012 4:42 PM Straggler has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 107 of 318 (675064)
10-05-2012 1:46 PM
Reply to: Message 106 by Straggler
10-05-2012 1:42 PM


Re: GOD is NOT a god
Unknowable is an indication that I cannot define GOD.

Yes, if Bilbo Baggins actually exists then Bilbo Baggins is not a human construct.

Very good.

Maybe you are learning.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by Straggler, posted 10-05-2012 1:42 PM Straggler has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 108 by Straggler, posted 10-05-2012 1:52 PM jar has responded

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10284
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 108 of 318 (675068)
10-05-2012 1:52 PM
Reply to: Message 107 by jar
10-05-2012 1:46 PM


Re: GOD is NOT a god
jar writes:

Unknowable is an indication that I cannot define GOD.

But you have. Vaguely. He is the "unknowable" creator of all that is seen and unseen.

jar writes:

Yes, if Bilbo Baggins actually exists then Bilbo Baggins is not a human construct.

Explain to me how this "unknowable" GOD you speak of is any more or less of a human construct than Bilbo Baggins...?

jar writes:

Maybe you are learning.

Educate me oh wise one....


This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by jar, posted 10-05-2012 1:46 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 109 by jar, posted 10-05-2012 2:05 PM Straggler has responded
 Message 242 by Jon, posted 10-14-2012 1:07 AM Straggler has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 109 of 318 (675071)
10-05-2012 2:05 PM
Reply to: Message 108 by Straggler
10-05-2012 1:52 PM


Re: GOD is NOT a god
I have repeatedly told you that I cannot, at least while I am alive, know anything of the attributes of GOD.

I have told you repeatedly that I believe GOD is the creator of all that is, seen or unseen.

If Bilbo Baggins exists then Bilbo Baggins would not be a human construct.

If GOD exists (I may even have mentioned that to you) then GOD is not a human construct.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by Straggler, posted 10-05-2012 1:52 PM Straggler has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by Straggler, posted 10-05-2012 2:15 PM jar has responded

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10284
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 110 of 318 (675073)
10-05-2012 2:15 PM
Reply to: Message 109 by jar
10-05-2012 2:05 PM


Re: GOD is NOT a god
I will readily agree that you have repeatedly said lots of things. But all of them are just unjustifiable assertions.

jar writes:

I have repeatedly told you that I cannot, at least while I am alive, know anything of the attributes of GOD.

Explain to me how this "unknowable" GOD you speak of is any more or less of a human construct than Bilbo Baggins...?

jar writes:

I have told you repeatedly that I believe GOD is the creator of all that is, seen or unseen.

Sure. And I ask you why that belief is any more worthy of consideration than Gandalf as the creator of all that is seen and unseen.

jar writes:

If Bilbo Baggins exists then Bilbo Baggins would not be a human construct.

Do you agree that Bilbo Baggins is very probably just a human construct?

jar writes:

If GOD exists (I may even have mentioned that to you) then GOD is not a human construct.

Well so you relentlessly assert. But whether GOD exists or not what definition of "god" are you applying such that GOD doesn't qualify as a god?

That is the topic here and you seem very unable to answer it...


This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by jar, posted 10-05-2012 2:05 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 112 by jar, posted 10-05-2012 4:30 PM Straggler has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 16124
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 111 of 318 (675075)
10-05-2012 2:25 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by Phat
10-04-2012 6:26 PM


Re: To define God is to define an Ultimate
Phat writes:

Yeah but what good is a religion with no power and no Deity? All we have left is boy scout merit badges...hardly the stuff to follow devoutly.


By their fruits (merit badges) ye shall know them. We can easily define a religion, or a way of life, without making it a fan club to some deity. The question is, why define God in such a way that He needs fans?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by Phat, posted 10-04-2012 6:26 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 112 of 318 (675091)
10-05-2012 4:30 PM
Reply to: Message 110 by Straggler
10-05-2012 2:15 PM


Re: GOD is NOT a god
Please show me where I have ever suggested that GOD should be considered by you or anyone else.

I answered it, you seem incapable of understanding.

NMP.

Edited by jar, : No reason given.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by Straggler, posted 10-05-2012 2:15 PM Straggler has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 114 by Phat, posted 10-05-2012 5:19 PM jar has responded
 Message 118 by Straggler, posted 10-07-2012 11:51 AM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 12028
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 113 of 318 (675093)
10-05-2012 4:42 PM
Reply to: Message 106 by Straggler
10-05-2012 1:42 PM


IF as Objectivity
Straggler writes:

Anything defined as unknowable is by definition a human construct (whether it exists or not). How could it possibly be otherwise?

So if an actual creature existed on a planet 100 billion light years away, they would have to be a human construct? I don't follow your line of logic.

All jar seems to be saying is that it is possible that a Creator could exist whether or not all, some, or one human "constructed" the idea. It is irrelevant who believes in such a Deity. It is irrelevant who can or cannot even imagine such a Deity. IF this Deity exists, it exists regardless of our beliefs, perceptions, logic, or ability to frame an issue. And if not, then not. Period.

Edited by Phat, :


This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by Straggler, posted 10-05-2012 1:42 PM Straggler has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 115 by AZPaul3, posted 10-05-2012 5:20 PM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 120 by Straggler, posted 10-07-2012 11:55 AM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 12028
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 114 of 318 (675097)
10-05-2012 5:19 PM
Reply to: Message 112 by jar
10-05-2012 4:30 PM


Re: GOD is NOT a god
I think that what Straggler is trying to prove to us is that the "construct" itself is a human construct. That in order for GOD to exist, we humans need awareness. Otherwise we would be unaware and thus unable to objectify such an idea...thus rendering the idea as questionable.

I can see where GOD could exist regardless of my acknowledgement,

but one could argue that my very acknowledgement of such an idea amounts to a prior human construct.

Does that make sense?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by jar, posted 10-05-2012 4:30 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 116 by jar, posted 10-05-2012 5:32 PM Phat has responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 3753
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 115 of 318 (675098)
10-05-2012 5:20 PM
Reply to: Message 113 by Phat
10-05-2012 4:42 PM


Re: GOD is NOT a god
So if an actual creature existed on a planet 100 billion light years away, they would have to be a human construct?

Since such a thing is "unknowable" then any attributes assumed, like "existance" and 100 billion ly, are in fact the constructs of a very specific human. You.

IF this Deity exists, it exists regardless of our beliefs, perceptions, logic, or ability to frame an issue. And if not, then not. Period.

Again, since attribues are assigned, such as "unknowable", "exists" and "creator" all without evidence then these attributes, and the god to which they refer, cannot be refered to as other than constructs of the human imagination.

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by Phat, posted 10-05-2012 4:42 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 116 of 318 (675100)
10-05-2012 5:32 PM
Reply to: Message 114 by Phat
10-05-2012 5:19 PM


Re: GOD is NOT a god
Not to me.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by Phat, posted 10-05-2012 5:19 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 117 by Phat, posted 10-06-2012 8:41 AM jar has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 12028
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 117 of 318 (675120)
10-06-2012 8:41 AM
Reply to: Message 116 by jar
10-05-2012 5:32 PM


Re: GOD is NOT a god
you are just saying that because this is faith&belief!


This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by jar, posted 10-05-2012 5:32 PM jar has acknowledged this reply

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10284
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 118 of 318 (675168)
10-07-2012 11:51 AM
Reply to: Message 112 by jar
10-05-2012 4:30 PM


Re: GOD is NOT a god
A supernatural creator of the universe (etc.) is a god by pretty much any conventional definition you can find.

  • Can you supply the source of the definition you are applying?
  • Can you cite the definition of "theist" that you are applying such that you can claim to be a theist who doesn't believe in the existence of god(s)?

    What you have done is invent your own self serving terminology in an act of definitional mastrurbation. But you don't even seem to be able do that whilst maintaining a consistent position. How can you be a theist if you don't believe in the existence of any god(s)?

    jar writes:

    I answered it, you seem incapable of understanding.

    Inventing your own meanings of words and then insisting that you are right isn't really a valid position now is it? You have no problem pointing out the stupidity of this when creationists do it so why engage in this sort of nonsense yourself?


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 112 by jar, posted 10-05-2012 4:30 PM jar has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 119 by jar, posted 10-07-2012 11:55 AM Straggler has responded

      
  • jar
    Member
    Posts: 30934
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004


    Message 119 of 318 (675169)
    10-07-2012 11:55 AM
    Reply to: Message 118 by Straggler
    10-07-2012 11:51 AM


    Re: GOD is NOT a god
    As I have explained to you, I am the source of the definition I am using.

    It really is that simple.


    Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 118 by Straggler, posted 10-07-2012 11:51 AM Straggler has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 121 by Straggler, posted 10-07-2012 12:00 PM jar has responded

      
    Straggler
    Member
    Posts: 10284
    From: London England
    Joined: 09-30-2006
    Member Rating: 3.6


    Message 120 of 318 (675170)
    10-07-2012 11:55 AM
    Reply to: Message 113 by Phat
    10-05-2012 4:42 PM


    Re: IF as Objectivity
    If something is unknowable, imperceivable etc. etc. etc. then where did any idea that it exists come from?

    Imagination. Obviously. It cannot, by definition be otherwise can it?

    Now by some fluke of blind random chance one may have imagined something that conceivably exists out there. Maybe there is a place out in the universe called Middle Earth full of hobbits and wizards etc. etc.

    But I would suggest it unlikely.......Wouldn't you?


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 113 by Phat, posted 10-05-2012 4:42 PM Phat has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 123 by Phat, posted 10-08-2012 5:49 AM Straggler has responded

      
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