Morality without god

And not a code that they, or anyone else, got from the Bible. Then perhaps he could have chosen a point at which no change was required. For example, unless I'm reading the Bible completely backwards, the Jews were slaves in Egypt, rather than slave-owners. "The Israelites groaned in their slavery and cried out, and their cry for help because of their slavery went up to God" (Exodus 2:23). When they left Egypt, God might have said: "Slavery is bad, as you all know from personal experience. I am pleased to see that none of you owns any slaves. Keep it that way." Is this the same God who will damn people to hell-fire for the original sin that they can't avoid being born with? Not even Abraham for God? It is one thing for God to abstain from enforcing his opinions, it's a whole 'nother thing for him to conceal them. It is because humans are frail that a little divine guidance wouldn't go amiss. Folks in the antebellum South, for example, could have used it, not despite being human and frail, but precisely because they were.Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

I let that challenge go because I wanted to point out that it didn't matter. But in fact many of the Africans sold by other Africans were not in fact slaves, but POWs, kidnap victims, and other captives. I don't think it's possible to make the case that their purchasers weren't involved in their enslavement. It does not make sense. In fact it is stupid or worse. You cannot actually gain any freedom by dying.

Why are you making excuses for posting here? We all know that even when you don't post that you are lurking here and dropping red bread crumbs to mark your passage. In fact how would you even know about the post if you weren't here?

I guess you don't bother to read the context or you'd know I was answering a question, just one of the many snarky insinuating questions that get thrown at me. Not that you care of course since you'd prefer just to add your snark to the rest of it.

Hmmm. The fact that you cant quote correctly sends up red flags to start with. But beyond that lets look at a similar passage:During war time this is a crime that is punishable up to the death penalty. So if I were of a mind to totally twist and spin this in the way you did the passage in the Bible, I could say: You see how easy it is to take something out of context and give it a shameful appearance. However if you leave the context of the passage where it belongs (The Jews struggling to become a nation of God's people) and come to it with the understanding that any act of treason by worshiping false gods could lead to the destruction of the Jews because God is no longer their protection... then it makes more sense.You probably wouldn't normally want to bind and gag someone just for carving holes in wood. But put yourself into the context of being with other survivors of a ship wreck, lost at sea in a life boat, with an unruly passenger on board who keeps trying to carve holes in the bottom of the boat, and now you damn straight are gonna do what ever it takes to keep you and the rest of the passengers alive. The point is context is everything.

According to them they did. Love your neighbor as yourself would be sufficient, or Paul's gentle suggestion to Philemon that he set his slave Onesimus free. Perhaps you could suggest that to Him when your time comes. There is no such thing as a person who ONLY has original sin and not sins of his own on top of it but of course that's an academic point. Yes, one and the same God. Who also provided a way out of the damnation to anyone who isn't too proud or stubborn to receive it as prescribed. Most of us believe that infants who die are received to God's presence on the basis of Christ's sacrifice, at least the infant children of believers. Didn't I already guess that Abraham would have obeyed? But "people" means people in general, there are always exceptions. Again I suggest you bring that up with Him when you see Him.

Faith ur logic seems really really weird to me, how is death of BILLIONS ok but laying down rules is "pushing people beyond their tolerance" - that's insane!Damn near everything is preferable to death!Seriously on what sort of scale is any rule you ever make EVER going to be worse than driving humanity to the brink of extinction! That's really dumbOn an aside what could the world possibly have done to deserve it? I'm an art therapist as such I've broken bread with murders, drug dealers and rapists - I would not wish death upon a single one of them, not many can be rehabilitated if I'm being totally honest but there isn't one I'd give up on. Where there is life there is hope.And what of the children, infants and unborn of the preflood world? Presumably they were slaughtered too. Is there any way to justify that that isn't totally totally immoral! Thegod of the bible is a blood thirsty monster, if it was proven to me that the biblical account was accurate I'd refuse to worship such a villianous beast

As I did with Dr. Adequate I would suggest that you bring that complaint before God when you see Him.But God never does anything without giving ample warning. Noah preached to the people that God's judgment was coming, preached at least for the hundred years it took him to build the ark, preached repent and be saved, and obviously he was ignored. A hundred years of warning ought to be sufficient don't you think? They could have chosen to be saved on the ark but they didn't.Apparently the pre-Flood world was wicked beyond our ability to appreciate. And since evil begets evil it is for the sake of the righteous that God does away with evil people. But again, not without AMPLE warning.Interesting that you are so concerned about all the wicked God punishes, and have a soft spot for criminals you yourself know, but apparently no concern or soft spot for their victims. Interesting.But I have faith that God's judgments are always righteous. You of course may ignore Him just as the antediluvian people did. You'll have plenty of company.{I have another suggestion, for anyone who isn't just stubbornly insisting he's right and God is wrong, who may not exist here but anyway: We all have questions about God's doings, some of them are truly shocking to us, and there's nothing wrong with having such questions. A sincere desire to learn from Him He would not turn away, but simply condemning Him on the basis of your own narrow ability to judge such things is a disastrous attitude to take. Yes you'll have plenty of company. But again, anyone who is willing to be wrong about such reactions to what God's word reveals can be sure He would answer your prayers to understand better. That's a far better stance to take than to wait until Judgment Day when it will be too late. He who has an ear to hear let him hear.}Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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The Christian? You do realize that you guys don't agree even on the topics you yourself have instanced

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The same can be said for any large organization. Boy Scouts don't all agree on how to start a campfire. Most organizations have basic tenants that the majority do agree with. But I don't care what group your talking about your always gonna find that one in the crowd that doesn't. All true Christians agree that the Bible is the word of God and though there might be some minor variances in interpretation, they all agree on the main and plain things.

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Slave-owners, heretic-burners, genocides, every despicable person you can think of --- they all thought to themselves: "These aren't my opinions, these are the immutable opinions of the one true God.

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You never cease to prove that you haven't got a clue what you are talking about doc. Actually the despicable one's you mention are evidence that the scriptures are true rather than hinder them. It was prophesied by Christ Himself that many would come in His name claiming He is the Christ, but would deceive many. And Jesus wasn't known to exaggerate. When He said "many" He meant MANY. In this, my faith is always bolstered by those who claim to be Christians but are found to be corrupt.

Don't you think that your God could have found a more peruasive way of convincing people than to get the weird guy up the hill who's building an enormous boat in a desert to give the message?(How do you think he told the people not in his immediate vicinity, Facebook?)Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Word of mouth.

Delighted to see someone mention this - as an Irish man I'd rather not personally use such a point in a cheesy online debate but it is very valid and is a huge national
Shame that we are all quite acutely aware of.If it's any consolidation it's left Ireland very nearly an atheist nation which will serve us well in the next few generations (again in the light of the recent X case a lot of us can't wait to get rid of Christianity from our lovely little country entirely)

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but I began my arguement on this thread referencing some of the evils in the bible - if ur god given morality is unwavering then can I expect that u go with the following;

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I'll make you a deal here. We'll look at these in their context and see if they really mean what you imply. So you pick one (any one you think to be the worst) and we can examine it together. Truth of the matter is you can make anything look bad if you pull it out of context and give it enough spin.

How sad that you think the Roman Church has anything to do with Christianity. As the Reformers knew the Roman papacy is Antichrist. Ireland was a powerful evangelical missionary-sending nation before Rome got its fangs into you. Patrick had been the missionary to Ireland and NOT from a Roman church but from a primitive Celtic church that had been founded earlier, and he passed on his true Christianity to the Irish, who were strong true Christians for some time afterward. Then Rome came and conquered the island, turned the image of poor Patrick into a "bishop" wearing that ridiculous pointy hat and wrecked the Irish. If you give up on Romanism great but don't kid yourself that you're giving up on Christianity by doing so. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

I wrote a very bitter and personally grieved reply to ur comment, but I've deleted it - this isn't a place to get personal - but u have no idea of the real world it appearsBack to the flood!Even if I accept ur premise that the world was wicked how could a pro-life like god justify the death of children????
Imposing punishment upon someones child for their crime is beyond immoral. Are u a father Faith? I am. It would not be right, just or moral for someone to harm my child if they were displeased with me