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Author Topic:   Morality without god
jar
Member (Idle past 422 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 78 of 1221 (677924)
11-02-2012 5:13 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by Dawn Bertot
11-02-2012 5:07 PM


Interesting.
If matter in motion or survival of the fittest is the answer, then by all rights I should be trying to overthrow or kill you and take everything you have.
Seems that we are lucky you believe in some ultimate judge.
Is there some reason that societies, cultures and nations can't decide what is right and wrong?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by Dawn Bertot, posted 11-02-2012 5:07 PM Dawn Bertot has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 422 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 176 of 1221 (679790)
11-15-2012 7:51 PM
Reply to: Message 175 by Dawn Bertot
11-15-2012 7:42 PM


The Bible says ...
The Bible says that man knows what is right and wrong and does not need god to establish that.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 175 by Dawn Bertot, posted 11-15-2012 7:42 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 178 by Dawn Bertot, posted 11-15-2012 8:15 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 422 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 179 of 1221 (679794)
11-15-2012 8:22 PM
Reply to: Message 178 by Dawn Bertot
11-15-2012 8:15 PM


Re: The Bible says ...
Ah, I assumed you had read the Bible. My mistake.
Gen 3:22 writes:
22 And the Lord God said, The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil.
Note that it is not some minor bit player like Matthew, Mark, Luke or John, not some small person like Paul or Peter, but God saying that.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 178 by Dawn Bertot, posted 11-15-2012 8:15 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 181 by Dawn Bertot, posted 11-15-2012 8:35 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 422 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 182 of 1221 (679798)
11-15-2012 8:44 PM
Reply to: Message 181 by Dawn Bertot
11-15-2012 8:35 PM


Re: The Bible says ...
Ah, I see you really haven't read the Bible.
No, that passage has nothing to do with right, wrong or morality.
Man received the knowledge of good and evil, right and wrong by eating the Fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.
But either way it is irrelevant. According to no less a personage that God herself The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil."
Man knows right and wrong, good and evil and so can establish morality and even evolve morality over time. No god need apply.
In fact the Bible even says that when God is about to act immorally it is up to man to point out that God is about to behave immorally and needs to stop and think.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 181 by Dawn Bertot, posted 11-15-2012 8:35 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 183 by Dawn Bertot, posted 11-15-2012 9:08 PM jar has replied
 Message 184 by Dawn Bertot, posted 11-15-2012 9:10 PM jar has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 422 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 185 of 1221 (679804)
11-15-2012 9:22 PM
Reply to: Message 183 by Dawn Bertot
11-15-2012 9:08 PM


Re: The Bible says ...
In many ways I agree with you, the story doesn't make any sense but that doesn't change what it says.
Sure Adam and Eve had no way to know that they should obey God over the serpent and so the God characters behavior in punishing them was unreasonable and capricious. But that doesn't change what the story says.
The story says that God gave them commands without giving them the tools they needed to know they should obey them. It is only after they ate from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil that they were capable of understanding.
The story goes into some detail about how the knowledge of right and wrong comes on them AFTER eating the fruit.
Read the Bible sometime, there are some interesting stories there. Here it is in full for you.
Genesis 2-3 writes:
Genesis 2
King James Version (KJV)
2 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens,
5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the Lord God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.
6 But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.
7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
8 And the Lord God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.
9 And out of the ground made the Lord God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
10 And a river went out of Eden to water the garden; and from thence it was parted, and became into four heads.
11 The name of the first is Pison: that is it which compasseth the whole land of Havilah, where there is gold;
12 And the gold of that land is good: there is bdellium and the onyx stone.
13 And the name of the second river is Gihon: the same is it that compasseth the whole land of Ethiopia.
14 And the name of the third river is Hiddekel: that is it which goeth toward the east of Assyria. And the fourth river is Euphrates.
15 And the Lord God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.
16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
18 And the Lord God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.
19 And out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.
20 And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him.
21 And the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;
22 And the rib, which the Lord God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.
23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.
24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.
25 And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.
Genesis 3
King James Version (KJV)
3 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.
8 And they heard the voice of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God amongst the trees of the garden.
9 And the Lord God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?
10 And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.
11 And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?
12 And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.
13 And the Lord God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.
14 And the Lord God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
20 And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.
21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the Lord God make coats of skins, and clothed them.
22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
23 Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.
And don't worry, I've read the Bible and so can also support the other assertions. Try it as homework and see if you can find it. Like the others it is from one of the earlier stories so shouldn't take you too long to find it.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 183 by Dawn Bertot, posted 11-15-2012 9:08 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 186 by Dawn Bertot, posted 11-15-2012 9:36 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 422 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 187 of 1221 (679808)
11-15-2012 9:45 PM
Reply to: Message 186 by Dawn Bertot
11-15-2012 9:36 PM


Re: The Bible says ...
But they did not know what they should do, Eve simply repeats the commands that were given. No where in the story does it say they had the tools to know right from wrong.
If they already knew right from wrong the there is no reason for the god character to create the tree or forbid them eating from it.
But that's what the story says.
Regardless of how you quote mine it or take it out of context or try to claim that Adam was made in God's image the story says otherwise.
And do your homework, read the Bible, and them maybe you too will learn a little.
In the end though, to bring it back to the topic, whether man was given the knowledge of right and wrong by being created in God's image (which is from a whole different story) or by eating from the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, man still has the same knowledge of right and wrong that God has and so according to the Bible does not need God to set or evolve moral standards.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 186 by Dawn Bertot, posted 11-15-2012 9:36 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 190 by Dawn Bertot, posted 11-15-2012 10:54 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 422 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 191 of 1221 (679821)
11-15-2012 11:07 PM
Reply to: Message 190 by Dawn Bertot
11-15-2012 10:54 PM


Re: The Bible says ...
I am simply repeating what the Bible says.
No where does the Bible say that Adam was made in God's image. The Character Adam first appears in the story found in Genesis 2.
I'm simply saying what the Bible says; try reading it sometime.
The topic is on morality. The Bible says that man has the same knowledge of good and evil that God has.
Gen 3 writes:
22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
Read what it says, "Behold the man is become as one of us: to know good and evil:".
Note the world become. That says that before eating from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil man did not have that ability.
Sorry but the fact is that the Bible says that man has the same knowledge of right and wrong as God does and so man is capable of setting moral standards and evolving those moral standards over time.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 190 by Dawn Bertot, posted 11-15-2012 10:54 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 192 by Dawn Bertot, posted 11-15-2012 11:21 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 422 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 193 of 1221 (679825)
11-15-2012 11:29 PM
Reply to: Message 192 by Dawn Bertot
11-15-2012 11:21 PM


Re: The Bible says ...
Too funny.
Read the Bible.
Gen 3 writes:
3 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.
The woman did not reason with the serpent, she simply repeated what she had been told.
Nor did she make a moral decision to disobey, she simply acted just like any little kid, saw the fruit was pretty and good to eat and that she had been told that that it would make her wise she ate.
The text clearly shows you have never read what was written.
Gen 3 writes:
22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
You may not like what the Bible says but that is what the Bible says.
In this case what the serpent said would happen was true and what God said would happen did not happen.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 192 by Dawn Bertot, posted 11-15-2012 11:21 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 194 by Dawn Bertot, posted 11-15-2012 11:49 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 422 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 200 of 1221 (679893)
11-16-2012 9:09 AM
Reply to: Message 194 by Dawn Bertot
11-15-2012 11:49 PM


Re: The Bible says ...
When she countered the serpents argument, by saying but we were told not to do that, of course she was reasoning. How any person can come to the conclusion that anything but rational discourse was taking place, is just being evasive
Read what the story actually says. I even posted it here in this thread so you could read it. Here it is again.
Gen 3 writes:
Genesis 3
King James Version (KJV)
3 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.
There is no reasoning. She repeats what she was told, the serpents says "Sorry but that's just BS.", and she eats the fruit.
And of course we always punish children with death because we know ahead of time they really didnt understand the command we gave them.
Maybe you do, but moral humans don't.
I dont kick my children out of my house when they disobey. These were not children
Or you are more moral than the character in the story.
But the fact remains that the Bible says man has the same capability to know right from wrong as God and so there is no need of God to set and evolve moral standards and the fact that you don't kick your children out of your house when they disobey is evidence in support of that fact.
Gen 3 writes:
22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil:

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 194 by Dawn Bertot, posted 11-15-2012 11:49 PM Dawn Bertot has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 422 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 224 of 1221 (680949)
11-21-2012 6:33 PM
Reply to: Message 221 by Dawn Bertot
11-21-2012 5:15 PM


But the Bible says God doesn't have absolute knowledge.
An absolute morality, right or wrong can only exist where the possibility of no more information can be gathered, to make a decision or conclusion concerning any matter,. ie infinite wisdom
But the Bible says that even God does not have all the information or infinite wisdom and sometimes needs a dope slap from man to behave morally.
I gotta ask yet again, have you ever actually read the Bible?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 221 by Dawn Bertot, posted 11-21-2012 5:15 PM Dawn Bertot has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 226 by Phat, posted 11-22-2012 12:29 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 422 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 228 of 1221 (681068)
11-22-2012 10:04 AM
Reply to: Message 226 by Phat
11-22-2012 12:29 AM


Re: But the Bible says God doesn't have absolute knowledge.
But it is not a matter of what you want to believe, rather it is what the Bible actually says.
You know right from wrong just as any God might, you simply don't like what your own innate knowledge of right a wrong tells you.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 226 by Phat, posted 11-22-2012 12:29 AM Phat has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 422 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 235 of 1221 (681157)
11-23-2012 11:33 AM
Reply to: Message 234 by Straggler
11-23-2012 11:14 AM


Re: X Wthout God
I mean presumably no man can be as evil as Satan himself (whether Satan is real or just a concept of ultimate evil is irrelevant to this).
The Bible does not make Satan out as an evil character and does not sh0ow Satan as having free will. Rather Satan is God's tester and tempter, doing only God's will.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 234 by Straggler, posted 11-23-2012 11:14 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 236 by Straggler, posted 11-23-2012 1:31 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 422 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 237 of 1221 (681169)
11-23-2012 1:33 PM
Reply to: Message 236 by Straggler
11-23-2012 1:31 PM


Re: X Wthout God
Okay. I have no problem with that assertion.
But I don't see how you get that position from what I posted.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 236 by Straggler, posted 11-23-2012 1:31 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 238 by Straggler, posted 11-23-2012 1:38 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 422 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 239 of 1221 (681171)
11-23-2012 1:40 PM
Reply to: Message 238 by Straggler
11-23-2012 1:38 PM


Re: X Wthout God
Does Satan exemplify evil?
Not according to the Bible.
Evil is simply a human construction just as good is simply a human construction.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 238 by Straggler, posted 11-23-2012 1:38 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 240 by Straggler, posted 11-23-2012 2:33 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 422 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 241 of 1221 (681178)
11-23-2012 2:49 PM
Reply to: Message 240 by Straggler
11-23-2012 2:33 PM


Re: X Wthout God
Of course that rabbit hole is simply irrelevant to this topic.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 240 by Straggler, posted 11-23-2012 2:33 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 242 by Straggler, posted 11-23-2012 3:17 PM jar has replied

  
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