Morality without god

I'll see your graph and raise u national statistics,For 2011, the average Murder Rate of Death Penalty States was 4.7, while the average Murder Rate of States without the Death Penalty was 3.1For 2010, the average Murder Rate of Death Penalty States was 4.6, while the average Murder Rate of States without the Death Penalty was 2.9For 2009, the average Murder Rate of Death Penalty States was 4.9, while the average Murder Rate of States without the Death Penalty was 2.8For 2008, the average Murder Rate of Death Penalty States was 5.2, while the average Murder Rate of States without the Death Penalty was 3.3

I would say only the third acted truly morally and he is the atheist in this story (I should know I wrote it)Fear of hell is akin to the death sentence in my storyHope for reward is akin to seeking heavenHaving a mind clear of either is akin to atheismU can't reinterpret this story cause I bloody well wrote it!

How many murders have u ever met? U should meet some of these people before posting figures..... But let's get back to qouting stuff at each other, from amnesty internationals USA branch I give you;" The murder rate in non-Death Penalty states has remained consistently lower than the rate in States with the Death Penalty.The threat of execution at some future date is unlikely to enter the minds of those acting under the influence of drugs and/or alcohol, those who are in the grip of fear or rage, those who are panicking while committing another crime (such as a robbery), or those who suffer from mental illness or mental retardation and do not fully understand the gravity of their crime."

Your definition of morality seems a bit off, lets just clarify terms;Morality- A system of ideas of right and wrong conduct: religious morality; Christian morality.- Virtuous conduct.Rules do not come into it, rules can be wrong and immoral -
Many of the rules in the bible I would deem deeply immoral even if they were
Once practicalEdit : I left the religious/Christian bit in there half to throw u guys a bone and half to express the notion that it's the ideas and not the rules that make something moral. I have no problem with loving thy neighbour in principleEdited by GrimSqueaker, : No reason given.

There is a colossal difference between a personally accepted notion of good behaviour and enforced rules (with rewards an reprimands) on behaviour, if I may use another example to illustrate my point;Case 1,Person A gives $100 to charity.Case 2,Person C gives $100 to charity while person G has a gun to his head telling him to give money to charity.The actions are the same but the circumstances are very very different. It's the rules, which implies force, that I have issue with on this particular noteEdited by GrimSqueaker, : No reason given.

Dude to be honest I didnt come up with statement, I did mention I was quoting Amnesty International who themselves were referencing the National Research Council, both of which I would consider a reputable source.
Where r u getting your figures from?Here is the original siteThe Death Penalty and Deterrence – Amnesty International USA

Intent is hugely important, if one accidentally does something wrong it's a lesser crime that doing it on purpose - and I'd someone accidentially does good it's far less heroic - ultimately it's the thought that counts

I'm sorry I really dont understand what point u are trying to make -
And where do u think I've been lying? I've provided sources for everything I've cited and I've tried to demonstrate my logic through thought models and examples, I've also included information from my own life to explain how I've come about my position. I really don't know how I can be more honest or up front.Edit / addition : and since u seemed concerned about my career path you'll be happy to know I havent worked in a prison for a few years now, currently run a day service for adults with profound autism.
With regards to victims I've met many many many of them, although obviously not
Murder victims..... Cus they're deadEdited by GrimSqueaker, : No reason given.

I would go a step further and say that an external source for morality is an oximoron

I think you'll find that proper education and being accepting of people would solve both of those problemsIs it too early to declare a Rationalist win?

I'm a little confused by ur line of argument - I intiall thought you were on the side of Objective Divine morality - but u seem to be saying that morality is subjective to the society we live in (which I more or less agree wit, although I do think an accepting and well educated society is the route to the hieghtest levels of morality)

Ok I've tried to illustrate my position twice before now with a demonstrative example and clearly my own use of language has fallen short, so please allow me one more go. But bare in mind I am aware that this will be a simplification, try to go with the Geist and not pick up on irrelevant points.My premise : People, both culturally and individually decide what is more, no supernatural agent is required - further more rules do no equate to morals and a deed preformed under duress etc is lessened morally if not entirely devoid of moral value.Background;If we can break down the theistic argument to a few very simple points;
- God knows best
- God has a higher moral standard than us
- God lays down rules for humans to follow
- From these rules we get our morals
- These are absolute morals, totally correct and unquestionable even if we disagree or don't understandIf we can accept that these are close to a theistic stand point great, lets move on.My Hypothetical;Imagine that god adds an 11th commandment, "Thou shall rape" (similar to the evil version of the king James bible "Thou shall commit adultry" commandment)Is this new rule moral? Does rape become Moral because it is in the rule book?My Proposal;Rules do not equal Morals, although many rules are derived from the morals that we have developed together within our own cultures as highly evolved social animals

Specifics of morality aside the topic in question is "Morality without God" - that last example was more geared toward that argument -
If god decreed an (another) immoral act moral would that make it so, rape being used a athe case in point

This conversation has gone nuts in the last few hours - I'd like to repeat my question to the religious among us;If God decreed an Evil Act Moral would that Act then become Moral?Please don't tell me god wouldn't, from where I'm sitting I think he has several times - but either way I am merely asking a question which I would like an answer too - not asking for qualification of the terms of the questionTa

Were the first born of Egypt not innocent? They were children and not the people who were in fact enslaving the Jews - seems freaking barbaric to me!