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Member Posts: 3945 From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior) Joined: Member Rating: 10.0 |
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Author | Topic: Continuation of Flood Discussion | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Three or more miles deep.
Compacted very hard, soft enough to be fairly easily shaped, hard enough not to slump. Lithification would happen later (ABE: although with all the water trickling through the layers it could already have begun /abe). Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
I think tectonic tilting.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Mistake to say bill8ions, should have said hundreds of millions, just writing too fast.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Not as soon as deposited but as soon as exposed, and I think the receding Flood water exposed all the cliffs of the Grand Staircase, and cut the canyons there, and the Grand Canyon as well, and the buttes that became Monument Valley.
ABE: If you want evidence that all this occurred at the same time I'd point to what I think is comparable amounts of scree in the erosion skirts or talus of all the formations. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
The point is that if all the strata are in place before this massive erosion occurs it means that massive erosion didn't occur at any point during their laying down. You can see nice neat strata in those hills and buttes in the movie I mentioned, forms carved out of what was of course continuous strata everywhere in between originally, just as you can see them in pictures of all these formations etc etc etc. Of course it can all be rationalized as you all do in OE terms but the simple fact I keep harping on is really very good evidence that OE timing is wrong because otherwise you WOULD have massive erosion at other points in the stack. Yes of course you can rationalize it away. Just hundreds of millions of years of no massive erosion and then suddenly ka wham huge cliffs, canyons, buttes, layers and layers of strata eroded away completely, down to scoured surfaces of Kaibab (Permian) or whatever the sandstone in Monument Valley is. Every time I notice this I'm amazed that the OE explanation continues to reign.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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edge Member (Idle past 1735 days) Posts: 4696 From: Colorado, USA Joined:
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Here's an image showing how regions like Monument Valley form:
Good illustration. Here is a real life tepui on the Guyana Shield.
This is from Geologic Framework of Arizona, page 30. These rocks are harder and older (Precambrian) and make the monuments of Monument Valley look puny. Much more water here, of course, and check out the talus deposits. These features are weathering out of a huge plateau referred to as the Grand Sabana in Venezuela.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
I can't look at straight flat formations like that without thinking Flood.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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Coyote Member (Idle past 2135 days) Posts: 6117 Joined:
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I can't look at straight flat formations like that without thinking Flood. That, perhaps, is a big part of your problem. Flat formations can be formed in many ways. You make a flat "formation" when you cook a pancake!Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge. Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1 "Multiculturalism" does not include the American culture. That is what it is against.
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edge Member (Idle past 1735 days) Posts: 4696 From: Colorado, USA Joined:
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The point is that if all the strata are in place before this massive erosion occurs it means that massive erosion didn't occur at any point during their laying down.
And the problem with that is what? Besides, we know that there were substantial erosional events below the Unkar, below the Chuar and below the Tapeats. What are you avoiding them?
You can see nice neat strata in those hills and buttes in the movie I mentioned, forms carved out of what was of course continuous strata everywhere in between originally, just as you can see them in pictures of all these formations etc etc etc. Of course it can all be rationalized as you all do in OE terms but the simple fact I keep harping on is really very good evidence that OE timing is wrong because otherwise you WOULD have massive erosion at other points in the stack.
Explain thsi evidence? Why is it evidence? And why MUST there be erosion at any given point in time?
Yes of course you can rationalize it away. Just hundreds of millions of years of no massive erosion and then suddenly kawham huge cliffs, canyons, buttes, layers and layers of strata eroded away completely, down to scoured surfaces of Kaibab (Permian) or whatever the sandstone in Monument Valley is. Every time I notice this I'm amazed that the OE explanation continues to reign.
Please give us an explanation other than your personal prejudice. Why can we not have a long period of relative stability? Or is that just your opinion? What is it based on?
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edge Member (Idle past 1735 days) Posts: 4696 From: Colorado, USA Joined: |
I can't look at straight flat formations like that without thinking Flood.
Of course. That was your early brainwashing. This truth was revealed to you. You did not arrive at this conclusion through careful observation and study. So this is your evidence? Arbitrary acceptance?
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edge Member (Idle past 1735 days) Posts: 4696 From: Colorado, USA Joined: |
I think tectonic tilting.
And what a real scientist would do is go out and look for supporting evidence. For YECs, it means repeating the same assertions over and over until everyone's eyes glaze over.
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edge Member (Idle past 1735 days) Posts: 4696 From: Colorado, USA Joined:
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Three or more miles deep.
And where would all of those sediments come from in a global flood?
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PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3
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quote: Then you need decent estimates of the tine that the rock was exposed. Arguing about the date that the material was deposited as in Message 479 is really pointless. You also need a very good idea of WHAT was exposed. Taking the visible talus skirts as marking the boundary of the original exposure is also foolish, because the erosive forces will also work on the talus, removing it or eroding it further.
quote: Believe what you like, but don't bring question-begging assumptions into your arguments.
quote: That's not really a good argument. First, you're only guessing at the amount (and I'd be very surprised if any hoodoo has a massive skirt like the buttes in Monument Valley). Second you don't have the numbers to show that it would be meaningful even if it was true.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
quote: It's more accurate to say that Flood timing does not provide the long periods required.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3
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quote: No, it doesn't. It quite obviously doesn't. You can't say "if something is happening now then nothing similar ever happened before" That's silly. And while you might raise quibbles there's no substantial difference between that and your argument as you've expressed it above.
quote: Just remember that when you make your age estimates...
quote: But we DO. And let us remember that in two of the cases your whole point is that the rock formations we see - the hoodoos and the buttes will disappear in a relatively short period of time. You won't see them after they're gone.
quote: Sadly for you, imaginative fantasies aren't good arguments.
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