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Author | Topic: The Search for Moderate Islam | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Modulous Member Posts: 7801 From: Manchester, UK Joined: |
Not at all. But I can see how you might think that since you broke my paragraph apart and took pieces of it out of their context. The other parts of the paragraph are just reinforcing the notion that you think it is Islam alone that is the problem. Or are you not saying this?
My point: It is very 'western' to see the world in terms of economics and politicsthese are pretty much the driving forces behind individual decision making in the west; it's part of our culture. This is not part of everyone else's culture though. If you are trying to sound uninformed then you are doing a decent job. Please, Oh Wise One, explain to me how politics is irrelevant to Arab culture. Show me your wisdom and your sources on how Political Islam is ambivalent on the topic of politics and economics. I wonder what OBL was saying in the 1990s? Hm, seems to be talking politics, about America's and Israel's policies and classifications and their targeting of Muslims. What about later though? Anyone else?
quote: Salafist jihadism not interested in politics?? Islamism, disinterested in politics? LOL!! Their motivation is political, their rationalization for their tactics is religious.
Where does that leave us? Whole cultures deciding to live in Backwardsville where governments are theocracies and human rights don't matter just to avoid accepting ideas they perceive as coming from the 'enemy'? Are they that stupid? Cultures don't make decisions, and people don't have access to the same information and experiences you do so you can't expect them to conclude the same things.
I don't think so; instead I think the problem is that the area is so entrenched in its religious delusions that absolutely nothing else in the world matters beyond maintaining those delusions. 'Western' ideas are bad not because they are 'western' but specifically because they threaten to shatter the delusion. That's part of it, yes. Their religion is a big part of their culture, and they don't want to westernize their religion because they don't see the west as being something to aspire to, but instead as something to fear. But you are looking at a cause-effect problem here. Why is the Salafi movement being successful? Muslims haven't always been this way, it has been rising since the 80s I believe courtesy of Saudi Arabia, but really got its legs in the mid 90s and is currently having another surge. Why is that? I say it is fuelled by anger and a sense of powerlessness and oppression. A sense of an outside group trying to impose their will and views on the group they belong to, unifying them even as they have disagreements against a perceived common enemy. What do you say?
You asked me why I felt different about Islam, not whether I expected it to behave differently. I did not ask you a general question about Islam, but a question in a specific context.
{Explaining why moderate Islam has difficulty spreading around}It is in its early stages; it is still the lofty ideas of a handful of moderate Muslims; and there is still plenty of disagreement about what moderate Islam should be.
It's an Abrahamic religion, the other two major ones and all the minor ones are disagreeing about the correct way to be a modern moderate and I don't see why we should feel different about Islam. You seem to have misunderstood this. We're talking about how moderate Islam might not spread well, and you think one of the reasons there is difficulty is that there is 'plenty of disagreement'. My counter to this is that this is true of other comparable moderate religions and that didn't seem to be a huge problem and if it was, it worked out in the end. So, unless you have some particular reason to think Islam is exceptional in this regard, I expect the fact that religious people disagree about their made up stories is not a big barrier to the moderates getting their message accepted. If it does inhibit it, there's nothing we can do about it because that's what religion does, and we should be looking to other reasons we might be able to influence. Edited by Modulous, : No reason given. Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.
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Jon Inactive Member |
Responding to your points in reverse order and in one thread:
Maybe their definition of a successful society is different than yours or mine? You chided Mod about cultural assumptions, but you seem to be doing just that. Some understandings of morality are superior.
quote: You get rid of whatever is violating human rights; I think it is assumed under most liberal governments that there is no right to violate the rights of others. That is one right that we don't have to be in the business of protecting. There was a link given at the beginning of this thread to another thread (Evil Muslim conspiracy...). I've been reading this thread. Modulous cites some information in a message there (that was also cited by Bill Maher in an interview that I think was linked to in this thread, but anyway):
quote: This is why, at least partially, attempts to bring democratic systems to these areas have failed to restore basic human rights: the majority of people living in these regions don't want a society that recognizes basic human rights. The rest of the world is finding its hands tied and in a panic on what to do. How can you bring human rights to people who don't want them? How do you ensure the protection of people who do want those rights and would benefit from them? The rights of the oppressors to oppress seems to be an acceptable casualty in all this. Don't you think?
quote: This is completely untrue. And it is beside the point. What I was saying is that Islam is not more important to the world than the preservation and spread of basic human rights and liberties. If, for example, convincing people of the need for human rights turns them from the Islamic faith, then that is a completely acceptable sacrifice for the world to make. We are not obligated to protect religious belief at any and all costs. I can't imagine any decent person thinking otherwise. JonLove your enemies!
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Jon Inactive Member |
I think you have misunderstood me.
I did not mean that economic and political forces do not motivate the people of the Middle East. My point is that we should not discount the influence of religionwhich is unarguably greatby trying to understand the motives in purely western terms of economics and politics. There are a lot of factors involved and religion is a very big one that is often overlooked by many in the west because of our own cultural prejudices that place economics and politics at the front and discount religion as something meant to guide 'spiritual' matters and not for the making of major practical decisions. I think that handles the problems you had with my position regarding the role of politics in decision making.
Cultures don't make decisions, and people don't have access to the same information and experiences you do so you can't expect them to conclude the same things. I just quoted you citing some statistics in another thread. To take one as an example, about 80% of people in Egypt think adulterers should be stoned. It is hard to imagine that these people are incapable of conceptualizing a non-stoning; I mean, this is what happens every time they don't stone someone. So clearly they have access to the notion that people don't have to be stoned. They choose to ignore it for some reason or another (probably largely religion-based) and instead vote to stone folks.
What do you say? I say that it is evil to sit by and watch people be oppressed. Doing the right thing is the right thing to do even if the people you do it for hate you for doing it.
You seem to have misunderstood this. We're talking about how moderate Islam might not spread well, and you think one of the reasons there is difficulty is that there is 'plenty of disagreement'. My counter to this is that this is true of other comparable moderate religions and that didn't seem to be a huge problem and if it was, it worked out in the end. So, unless you have some particular reason to think Islam is exceptional in this regard, I expect the fact that religious people disagree about their made up stories is not a big barrier to the moderates getting their message accepted. If it does inhibit it, there's nothing we can do about it because that's what religion does, and we should be looking to other reasons we might be able to influence. The problem with disagreement goes deeper than just people who can't see eye-to-eye. One of the problems with the ideals held by the moderate Muslims is that they largely arrive at those ideals after long and laborious critical analysis. It makes the whole thing too inaccessible. In contrast (though I don't like comparing religions) moderate Christianity is very accessible; there are slogans and buzzwords that anyone can understand quickly and without thought"love the sinner, hate the sin", "turn the other cheek", etc. This is spreadable. "Sit down and listen to my drawn-out logical argument" is not. If there is a moderate Islam, then it needs to organize itself into something meaningful that can actually compete with extreme Islam. Otherwise the whole thing is pretty much a matter of tossing about definitions and has no practical value. Jon Edited by Jon, : No reason given.Love your enemies!
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Coyote Member (Idle past 2137 days) Posts: 6117 Joined: |
Sharia Law Swallowing Indonesia :: Gatestone Institute
Sharia Law Swallowing Indonesia Although Indonesia, "the world's largest Muslim country" with an 87% Muslim population, was once considered a moderate Muslim country, day by day it has been leaning more and more towards conservative Islam and Sharia laws. Initiated in 2009, bylaws in the light of Sharia rulings were implemented that conflict with the values of human rights, and are creating a difficult land for minorities to live in. It is clear--when Muslims approach a majority they start pushing. When they reach a supermajority all minority rights are in jeopardy.Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge. Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1 "Multiculturalism" does not include the American culture. That is what it is against.
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Modulous Member Posts: 7801 From: Manchester, UK Joined: |
My point is that we should not discount the influence of religionwhich is unarguably greatby trying to understand the motives in purely western terms of economics and politics. We don't. But this is irrelevant to the point being discussed and it looks like you are just trying to complain about Islam again. We were talking about the spread of moderate Islam. Your argument was that it can't spread because it is not complete. I dispute this. The 'influence of religion' on the area is not really relevant here because we're talking about religion. I was pointing out that liberal Islam is seen by many as a western corruption of Islam and they see the west as a bad thing and this is partly our fault.
I just quoted you citing some statistics in another thread. To take one as an example, about 80% of people in Egypt think adulterers should be stoned. It is hard to imagine that these people are incapable of conceptualizing a non-stoning; I mean, this is what happens every time they don't stone someone. So clearly they have access to the notion that people don't have to be stoned. They choose to ignore it for some reason or another (probably largely religion-based) and instead vote to stone folks. Yes, I was proposing that the cultures and experiences are different in that they don't understand the concept of not throwing stones. That's totally my argument. You completely destroyed that argument. Whatever am I to do?
But you are looking at a cause-effect problem here. Why is the Salafi movement being successful? Muslims haven't always been this way, it has been rising since the 80s I believe courtesy of Saudi Arabia, but really got its legs in the mid 90s and is currently having another surge. Why is that? I say that it is evil to sit by and watch people be oppressed. I say it is fuelled by anger and a sense of powerlessness and oppression. A sense of an outside group trying to impose their will and views on the group they belong to, unifying them even as they have disagreements against a perceived common enemy. What do you say? Doing the right thing is the right thing to do even if the people you do it for hate you for doing it. That's nice, but again I wasn't just asking you a general question about what you think. I was asking what you thought the reasons for the spread of Salaifist jihadism were. It's like asking about the spread of rampant anti-Semitism in Germany. There might be actual reasons we can point to. What do you think they are? I don't know why you keep {breaking} my paragraph apart and {taking} pieces of it out of their context, but could you stop?
The problem with disagreement goes deeper than just people who can't see eye-to-eye. One of the problems with the ideals held by the moderate Muslims is that they largely arrive at those ideals after long and laborious critical analysis. It makes the whole thing too inaccessible. Yes, I think they call that process of laborious critical analysis, 'education'. If you start it when they're young it becomes considerably easier.
. In contrast (though I don't like comparing religions) moderate Christianity is very accessible; there are slogans and buzzwords that anyone can understand quickly and without thought"love the sinner, hate the sin", "turn the other cheek", etc. This is spreadable. "Sit down and listen to my drawn-out logical argument" is not. I look forward to you showing me how this is absent from moderate Islam. Let's see "Islam is a religion of peace.""As you would have people do to you, do to them and what you dislike to be done to you, don't do to them." "There is no compulsion in religion" Three that I can think of right from the top of my head with no research required.
"Sit down and listen to my drawn-out logical argument" is not. And yet this is exactly what the Christians did to moderate their religion. They're still doing it. Most Christians don't read all that stuff, they were just told it by their pastors and parents etc. There has to be a theology (drawn out argument), but that's for the educated folks. I can't give you what the less educated liberal Muslims are saying because I imagine most of them can't speak English.
If there is a moderate Islam, then it needs to organize itself into something meaningful that can actually compete with extreme Islam. Otherwise the whole thing is pretty much a matter of tossing about definitions and has no practical value. That is already happening, but until we know what is causing the rise of jihadist Salifism we're not going to see as much progress as we'd like. Turkey seems to be doing pretty well, there is good organisation in Egypt and hope for it in Iran. If you have an informed critique about the level or organisation of liberal and moderate Islam, though, I'm willing to hear it. I mean seriously, how are you reaching the conclusion that liberal and moderate Islam is not meaningful?
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Modulous Member Posts: 7801 From: Manchester, UK Joined: |
It is clear--when Muslims approach a majority they start pushing. When they reach a supermajority all minority rights are in jeopardy. Off topic and illogical. You're doing a stellar job Coyote. Indonesia has been Muslim majority for centuries so cannot possibly support the off-topic conclusion you are reaching for.
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Coyote Member (Idle past 2137 days) Posts: 6117 Joined: |
It is clear--when Muslims approach a majority they start pushing. When they reach a supermajority all minority rights are in jeopardy. Off topic and illogical. You're doing a stellar job Coyote. Indonesia has been Muslim majority for centuries so cannot possibly support the off-topic conclusion you are reaching for. Possibly off topic, but I doubt it. As for "illogical" -- no logic required: facts are facts.I could provide a lot more examples. Perhaps you should wake up and look around you. Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge. Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1 "Multiculturalism" does not include the American culture. That is what it is against.
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Modulous Member Posts: 7801 From: Manchester, UK Joined:
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no logic required I believe you.
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Jon Inactive Member |
My point is that we should not discount the influence of religionwhich is unarguably greatby trying to understand the motives in purely western terms of economics and politics.
We don't. But this is irrelevant to the point being discussed and it looks like you are just trying to complain about Islam again. We were talking about the spread of moderate Islam. Your argument was that it can't spread because it is not complete. I dispute this. The 'influence of religion' on the area is not really relevant here because we're talking about religion. I was pointing out that liberal Islam is seen by many as a western corruption of Islam and they see the west as a bad thing and this is partly our fault.
I just quoted you citing some statistics in another thread. To take one as an example, about 80% of people in Egypt think adulterers should be stoned. It is hard to imagine that these people are incapable of conceptualizing a non-stoning; I mean, this is what happens every time they don't stone someone. So clearly they have access to the notion that people don't have to be stoned. They choose to ignore it for some reason or another (probably largely religion-based) and instead vote to stone folks. Yes, I was proposing that the cultures and experiences are different in that they don't understand the concept of not throwing stones. That's totally my argument. You completely destroyed that argument. Whatever am I to do? As far as the west having a hand in turning ordinary folks from good ideas, I'm not sure it matters. By refusing to accept a moderate form of Islam, the only damage they do is to themselves. Assigning blame makes for good footnotes, but it ultimately doesn't get much done. At most it means that moderate Muslims need to work harder to spread their message and emphasize that the values they preach regarding human rights are universal and not just 'western'. Whatever damage is done is done; whoever did it did it; we can only focus on the future.
But you are looking at a cause-effect problem here. Why is the Salafi movement being successful? Muslims haven't always been this way, it has been rising since the 80s I believe courtesy of Saudi Arabia, but really got its legs in the mid 90s and is currently having another surge. Why is that? I say that it is evil to sit by and watch people be oppressed. I say it is fuelled by anger and a sense of powerlessness and oppression. A sense of an outside group trying to impose their will and views on the group they belong to, unifying them even as they have disagreements against a perceived common enemy. What do you say? Doing the right thing is the right thing to do even if the people you do it for hate you for doing it. That's nice, but again I wasn't just asking you a general question about what you think. I was asking what you thought the reasons for the spread of Salaifist jihadism were. It's like asking about the spread of rampant anti-Semitism in Germany. There might be actual reasons we can point to. What do you think they are? I say they are largely religious. I say this because I want to give the people living there the benefit of the doubt: It is more reasonable to see people destroying their own societies in the name of religion than in the name of sticking it to their enemy. Perhaps the impetus was to avoid being 'western', but there are plenty of ways to do that. Digging up the darkest aspects of their religion and enacting a hell on earth for millions of people was the choice they made. They decided on being down-right self destructive and that, I think, is the result of their religious belief.
I can't give you what the less educated liberal Muslims are saying because I imagine most of them can't speak English. Which, in fact, means that you cannot even discern whether they are liberal or not.
I mean seriously, how are you reaching the conclusion that liberal and moderate Islam is not meaningful? Because I'm not a Muslim and I don't see it accomplishing anything for people who are.Love your enemies!
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Modulous Member Posts: 7801 From: Manchester, UK Joined: |
As far as the west having a hand in turning ordinary folks from good ideas, I'm not sure it matters. By refusing to accept a moderate form of Islam, the only damage they do is to themselves. Assigning blame makes for good footnotes, but it ultimately doesn't get much done. It's not about blame, its about cause and effect. If something we've been doing is making the situation worse, it would be wise if we considered that in our plans.
At most it means that moderate Muslims need to work harder to spread their message and emphasize that the values they preach regarding human rights are universal and not just 'western'. Let's not blame the victims though, eh? In the current climate working any harder could get their heads cut off.
Whatever damage is done is done; whoever did it did it; we can only focus on the future. It's difficult to pacify an angry community if you don't know why they're angry. So knowing what we've done in the past, should help inform how we act in the future.
I say they are largely religious. You think jihadist Salifism is spreading so much because they are largely religious? I'm not sure that makes any sense.
say this because I want to give the people living there the benefit of the doubt: It is more reasonable to see people destroying their own societies in the name of religion than in the name of sticking it to their enemy. Or they don't see themselves destroying their own societies.
Perhaps the impetus was to avoid being 'western', but there are plenty of ways to do that. Digging up the darkest aspects of their religion and enacting a hell on earth for millions of people was the choice they made. They decided on being down-right self destructive and that, I think, is the result of their religious belief. But the question is - why that religious belief, why that darkest aspect of their religion? I'm not proposing it is to avoid being 'western'. That's my proposal for the suspicion of and reluctance to adopt, liberal and secular Islam. I expect that, in part, they have chosen to adopt a religious perspective that justifies total war because they feel they are at war. They feel that because of the historical and present day facts on the ground previously described earlier. They are angry and scared and so they turn to a hard line nationalistic/Islamist 'We're soldiers together' type religion. I'd say it is not entirely dissimilar to the wave of nationalistic fascism that exploded as traditional empires started to crumble and collide at the start of the 20th century in Europe as the Germans felt like Europe had humiliated them and they united as Ein Volk and took it out on the weak and unpopular. There was a terrible crime committed in my community recently. Arson at a dog's home, lots of dogs died. Community in outcry. There are thousands of people around me talking about how we should get the bastard that did and burn him. And they're being serious, even if they wouldn't do it themselves. His photo has been leaked to social media as has his full name. But he hasn't been charged with a crime. I'm following the people that are sharing this photo and they're literally performing a witch hunt, with the same traditional conclusion. I believe there was a young black man that was shot, caused sections of the community to act aggressively? I can see why the Ummah is turning the way it is, given the way these things are talked about.
Which, in fact, means that you cannot even discern whether they are liberal or not. So now I'm expected to identify individual everyday liberal Muslims for you now? What kind of madness is this comment? I've already given you evidence these people exist. Do I need to repeat myself?
Because I'm not a Muslim and I don't see it accomplishing anything for people who are. Why would we expect you to, not being a Muslim, and all?
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Coyote Member (Idle past 2137 days) Posts: 6117 Joined: |
Islamic State's taunting speech calls for killing civilians
The extremist group Islamic State will drive the United States to its "death, grave and destruction," a spokesman for the militants declared in a recording that also called on Muslims living in the West to kill civilians. The extremist group Islamic State will drive the United States to its "death, grave and destruction," a spokesman for the militants declared in a recording that also called on Muslims living in the West to kill civilians. Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge. Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1 "Multiculturalism" does not include the American culture. That is what it is against. |
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Coyote Member (Idle past 2137 days) Posts: 6117 Joined: |
It’s Time to Take the Islamic State Seriously
It’s Time to Take the Islamic State SeriouslyReligious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge. Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1 "Multiculturalism" does not include the American culture. That is what it is against.
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Jon Inactive Member |
I think we are all taking ISIS seriously.
Love your enemies!
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Modulous Member Posts: 7801 From: Manchester, UK Joined: |
quote:Amman Message – The Official Site quote: This is Not the Path to Paradise Not strictly liberal, but certainly moderate.
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Coyote Member (Idle past 2137 days) Posts: 6117 Joined: |
Iraq crisis: 'Every single Christian wants to leave'
Iraq crisis: 'Every single Christian wants to leave' Christians in the Nineveh region of northern Iraq are unable to celebrate communion for the first time in two millennia, after Islamic State militants captured the area and took over the churches. Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge. Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1 "Multiculturalism" does not include the American culture. That is what it is against. |
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