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Author | Topic: Who & what are the demons ? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18349 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Straggler writes: anything empirically detectable can be objectively evidenced. I suppose this gets back to our imagination as source.
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Phat Member Posts: 18349 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Are you proposing some sort of "sixth sense" type means of detection.....? I believe that it is possible, as I have "imagined/believed" such a scenario. No proof, however.......
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Phat Member Posts: 18349 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Straggler writes: You got me there. There is no objectiveevidence for any presumed supernatural phenomena, be it God, GOD, OGG, or demons. I maintain, however, that subjective evidence remains valid, at least for my own conclusions.
If I were to ask you how some non-materially detectable form of influence could interract with our physical brains what would you say.....?
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Phat Member Posts: 18349 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Which subjective experiences qualify as evidence and which don't? How would I know if I had a dream about a demon? The only subjective evidence that I would have is the way that my body/soul responded to the dream. If, for example, I broke out in a cold sweat, or was unable to move Paralyzed Wakefulness If you have a dream about a demon does that qualify as evidence of the actual existence of demons? If you have a dream about Aphrodite (for example) does that qualify as evidence of the actual existence of Aphrodite? Finally, should I approach the problem logically, reasonably, and rationally, or is that itself mean that I am in denial? Is spiritual experience untestable in the natural world?
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Phat Member Posts: 18349 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Straggler writes: Indeed. As I may have said before, I dont go out of my way to believe in the occult. I DO defend my belief in God,though I allow myself to question it.(as opposed to doubting it) Either those who believe demons do exist are wrong or those who believe they don't exist are wrong. We may never know which. But we do know for a fact that some beliefs are just factually wrong. How can it be otherwise? This was interesting:
VATICAN GIVES THUMBS UP FOR EXORCIST ASSOCIATION The article states--in part:
quote: Apparently, one such recipient of blessing from the good Pontif himself still has issues.
Man in Pope Francis Exorcism Story Says He's Still Possessed by Demons When I use a word, Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone, it means just what I choose it to meannothing more nor less.
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Phat Member Posts: 18349 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0
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"Pope Francis and the demons" sounds like a Disney movie. The main character in the movie is this guy from Canada who simply wants God to leave him alone and who resents the idea that God gets to treat humanity however He decrees. He finds some of the demons on the street...homeless and unkempt....and gives them some of his spare change. A friendship is forged. The autocratic Catholic Bishop hears of this and frantically calls the Vatican. "To The Popemobile", they shout! The climactic finale has Pope Francis on a snowmobile, heading the demons off at the pass...whereby our Canadian friend steps in front of the Pontif and begs him to lay off the poor demons....who are, after all, simply displaced people in need of a home. Walt would of course turn over in his grave. When I use a word, Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone, it means just what I choose it to meannothing more nor less.
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Phat Member Posts: 18349 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
zombie writes: Because of the otherworldly voices. The human freely decided to allow the inspiration of the demon in their lives and the otherworldly voices confirm the existence of the demon...not simply as a man making unduplicatable noises. If a demon can not influence a human to do anything that that human had not previously decided to do anyway - such as speaking in "otherworldly" voices - why do you need to postulate the existence of the demon at all?
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Phat Member Posts: 18349 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
zombie writes: I agree that any sound can be duplicated, but the technology or instrument must be present that duplicates it. There are certain sounds that no ordinary human can make. If your ear can hear it - i.e if it is a sound wave - then it can be duplicated. What maybe can not be duplicated is a glitch in your brain that causes you to think you hear something that isn't really there, that isn't really a sound at all. As for the glitch in my brain...I will admit that I may have been hearing things and/or that I only thought I heard what I heard--except for the reaction from two other people present who also indicated that "yes...we all heard something"!! Perhaps my conclusion as to what the sound was was made premature and was fueled by confirmation bias. All I know is that the incident freaked all of us out and were you to interview the witnesses they would confirm that fact.
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Phat Member Posts: 18349 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
zombie writes: Are you suggesting that a biased group of believers would more readily consider a woo explanation whereas a group of critical thinking skeptics would to this day have no conclusion for such an event? the glitch in your brain may be either hardware-related - e.g. hallucination - or software-related - e.g. a culturally-biased belief in spooks. A consensus can eliminate the former but not the latter. I can see it now....
GOD: "I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life"
Critical Thinking Skeptics: We are currently interpreting all possible data and will arrive at our own consensus within our lifetime. I wont argue that its better to ask more questions rather than jumping to conclusions...but one cannot remain forever uncommitted, can they? Edited by Phat, : No reason given. Edited by Phat, : No reason given.Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo If You Don't Stand For Something You Will Fall For Anything~Malcolm X
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Phat Member Posts: 18349 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Did you see the latest from Pope Francis?
Pope Francis declares evolution and Big Bang theory are real and God is not 'a magician with a magic wand'Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo It's easy to see the speck in somebody else's ideas - unless it's blocked by the beam in your own.~Ringo If a savage stops believing in his wooden god, it does not mean that there is no God only that God is not wooden. (Leo Tolstoy)
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Phat Member Posts: 18349 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
My New Years was peaceful. I decided beforehand that I would rather start a year fresh rather than end a year wasted. It is a rare soul that can do both.
One sure way to wage effective spiritual war is to be intentional and patient. What we say to ourselves and to others is very important. Words can either be used to bless or to curse. And in the final analysis, are we not responsible for every word and sentence which comes out of our mouths and of every thought that we think? Edited by Phat, : fixed quoteSaying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo It's easy to see the speck in somebody else's ideas - unless it's blocked by the beam in your own.~Ringo If a savage stops believing in his wooden god, it does not mean that there is no God only that God is not wooden.(Leo Tolstoy)
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Phat Member Posts: 18349 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
The battle is between our carnal nature(what we like to do in that it feels good and is often selfish) and our spiritual nature(altruistic, regarding others better than ourselves)
Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo It's easy to see the speck in somebody else's ideas - unless it's blocked by the beam in your own.~Ringo If a savage stops believing in his wooden god, it does not mean that there is no God only that God is not wooden.(Leo Tolstoy)
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Phat Member Posts: 18349 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
What is a spiritual war? Perhaps the term "war" misleads some. You yourself have described such a conflict.
quote: When you see an attractive girl,for example...and you are a teenager full of hormones...the first natural inclination is to try and have her.This is the Yetzer Hara. The second inclination is to bless her and keep your hands off of her since she is so beautiful and rare. This is the Yetzer Tov.Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo It's easy to see the speck in somebody else's ideas - unless it's blocked by the beam in your own.~Ringo If a savage stops believing in his wooden god, it does not mean that there is no God only that God is not wooden.(Leo Tolstoy)
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Phat Member Posts: 18349 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
ringo in another thread writes: If your logic is correct, it would necessarily follow that everyone would have evidence and the entire world would see the obvious truth. Yet scripture tells us that a minority will believe and a majority will scoff. I'm not buying it because I don't believe a real God would hide. I refuse to accept your excuse that your God is hiding. If He came out of hiding I would not refuse Him. If there is no evidence, you're allowed to believe but one belief is as good as another. And you clarify:
riingo writes: I would argue that you refuse to allow any belief to color your conclusions---which may be a wise approach yet in many cases...including yours...leads to atheism. If there was something real outside our rational logic, how would we know?Even those who believe in demons are looking at real manifestations, usually "odd behavior". The only difference between a scientific approach and theirs is that they let their beliefs color their conclusions. Getting back to demons, however...I have seen enough subjective experiences to tentatively conclude they are real. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith "as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler
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Phat Member Posts: 18349 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
jar writes: As you may have mentioned before, anything that we ascribe supernatural elements to is not provable. Demons never affect unbelievers because demons are never ascribed as the cause. The cause is usually described as multiple personality disorder and/or schizophrenia. I'm not sure if you can state that there as never been a case...only that no case has been objectively proven. Which of course is true. Why are demons only able to effect folk that believe in demons? Why has there never been a case of a demon ever effecting an atheist or anyone who does not believe in demons? I am not claiming demons are a fact---only because I cannot show it objectively. You would probably assert that I prefer it to be true so that I have an excuseother than human responsibility. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith "as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler
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