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Author | Topic: Should countries outlaw the hijab, niqab and burka? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Tangle writes:
Canadian courts have ruled that banning the niqab is not legitimate, so I'm not alone. Maybe Europe just needs to catch up.
There is no other test other than individual opinion - yours against the European Court of Human Rights. Tangle writes:
What we're talking about here is oppression of women by dictating what they wear: oppression BY government.
Only if you wish to artificially seperate one form of female oppression from another.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
ringo writes: Canadian courts have ruled that banning the niqab is not legitimate, so I'm not alone. Maybe Europe just needs to catch up. I'd like to read that judgement - do you have a reference? But the point remains, it was - by simple definition - legitimate to ban the Burka in France. You and even your government may disagree, but it would still be legitimate.
What we're talking about here is oppression of women by dictating what they wear: oppression BY government. Nope - you are trying to twist the argument around to say that it is oppressive of the government to prevent people wearing full body and facial coverings. And of course it is the restriction of a freedom but it is done in order to benefit the community as a whole and to protect some women from worse oppression and subjugation. Governments do this all the time - try walking down the High Street naked. Do you feel oppressed? This guy does: Stephen Gough - WikipediaJe suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Tangle writes:
I should clarify that the specific case involved wearing the niqab at a citizenship ceremony. From what I Googled:
I'd like to read that judgement - do you have a reference?quote: Other courts have ruled that a woman must remove her niqab for identification purposes. I have no problem with that.
Tangle writes:
But it doesn't "benefit the community" any more than banning crosses or banning bindis or banning turbans would benefit the community. And it doesn't protect women from worse oppression and subjugation; it just drives them underground. Banning [arbitrary items of clothing] accomplishes no more than banning alcohol.
And of course it is the restriction of a freedom but it is done in order to benefit the community as a whole and to protect some women from worse oppression and subjugation.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
If veiling was really just a personal choice like wearing pink socks, there would be no problem. But we know that it is not, it's a requirement which under some forms of islam is enforced. From the New Humanist
Sharia law is still enforced in approximately 35 nations, where some form of veiling is compulsory. An estimated 83 Sharia courts operate in England today. Many Muslim families living in Western Europe use legal forms of coercion to make girls and women conform to veiling. The murder of Shafilea Ahmed, by her own parents, is a case study in how Europeans respond to these situations of family violence with an embarrassed silence, rather than the kind of outrage that would be seen as appropriate were its victims not exclusively female. The Iranian and Kurdish Women’s Rights Organisation (Ikwro) found last year that 39 out of 52 police forces across the UK had recorded at least 2,823 honour attacks over 2010. Some forces showed a jump of nearly 50 per cent in such cases from 2009. This is the backdrop against which Muslims in Europe claim that wearing the burqa is a choice. The claim that covering yourself up in public is an empowering choice insults the intelligence and dignity of women everywhere, just as the theological claim that the burqa is a necessary defence against predatory male sexuality insults Muslim men insofar as it treats them as fundamentally incapable of responsibility for their sexual behaviour. The reason Western feminists (male or female) object to seeing women in burqas is not that we can’t tolerate diversity, but that the burqa is a symbol of patriarchal Islam’s intolerance of dissent and desire to contain and repress female sexuality.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
ringo writes: But it doesn't "benefit the community" any more than banning crosses or banning bindis or banning turbans would benefit the community. And it doesn't protect women from worse oppression and subjugation; it just drives them underground. Banning [arbitrary items of clothing] accomplishes no more than banning alcohol. Once again, it benefits the community for the reasons that have been presented several times, just saying no it doesn't is not terribly convincing. The clothing is not arbitrary nor is it equivalent to crosses or turbans. The burka has a particular purpose, it's not just a symbol, it's a means of male oppression and it is not a free choice.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Tangle writes:
Under some forms of Christianity, wearing skirts is enforced. Let's ban skirts.
But we know that it is not, it's a requirement which under some forms of islam is enforced.
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Tangle writes:
I haven't seen any remotely convincing arguments that a dress code for women "benefits the community". Feel free to refresh my memory.
Once again, it benefits the community for the reasons that have been presented several times, just saying no it doesn't is not terribly convincing. Tangle writes:
How is a hijab different from a turban? How is a hijab different from a bindi?
The clothing is not arbitrary nor is it equivalent to crosses or turbans.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
ringo writes: I should clarify that the specific case involved wearing the niqab at a citizenship ceremony. From what I can gather, your government introduced a law banning niqabs in 2011. There have been legal challenges which look like will result in a Supreme Court hearing. So your country has a law banning the niqab......Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Tangle writes:
Our newly-elected government has promised to drop the appeal to the Supreme Court. link From what I can gather, your government introduced a law banning niqabs in 2011. There have been legal challenges which look like will result in a Supreme Court hearing. Edited by ringo, : Added reference.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.1
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ringo writes: How is a hijab different from a turban? How is a hijab different from a bindi? Sharia law is still enforced in approximately 35 nations, where some form of veiling is compulsory. An estimated 83 Sharia courts operate in England today. Many Muslim families living in Western Europe use legal forms of coercion to make girls and women conform to veiling. The murder of Shafilea Ahmed, by her own parents, is a case study in how Europeans respond to these situations of family violence with an embarrassed silence, rather than the kind of outrage that would be seen as appropriate were its victims not exclusively female. The Iranian and Kurdish Women’s Rights Organisation (Ikwro) found last year that 39 out of 52 police forces across the UK had recorded at least 2,823 honour attacks over 2010. Some forces showed a jump of nearly 50 per cent in such cases from 2009. This is the backdrop against which Muslims in Europe claim that wearing the burqa is a choice. The claim that covering yourself up in public is an empowering choice insults the intelligence and dignity of women everywhere, just as the theological claim that the burqa is a necessary defence against predatory male sexuality insults Muslim men insofar as it treats them as fundamentally incapable of responsibility for their sexual behaviour. The reason Western feminists (male or female) object to seeing women in burqas is not that we can’t tolerate diversity, but that the burqa is a symbol of patriarchal Islam’s intolerance of dissent and desire to contain and repress female sexuality.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.1
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ringo writes: I haven't seen any remotely convincing arguments that a dress code for women "benefits the community". Feel free to refresh my memory. In a Grand Chamber judgement published today, the top rights court ruled that there had been no violation of the European Convention on Human Rights. The ruling was based on France’s aim of living together with the court accepting the State’s argument that a barrier to other people’s human rights was created by women wearing the burqa. This barrier centred on the fact that it could stop people from feeling they could socialise with others, breaching their human rights to live in an inclusive society. The judgement is here:http://cdn.thejournal.ie/...lothing-concealing-ones-face.pdf Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Greatest I am Member (Idle past 304 days) Posts: 1676 Joined: |
If I had this type of ideology, they would be idiots to hire me.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=p... RegardsDL Edited by Greatest I am, : No reason given.
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Jon Inactive Member |
Impressive!
Love your enemies!
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Bliyaal Member (Idle past 2398 days) Posts: 171 From: Quebec City, Qc, Canada Joined: |
With your type of ideology, I wouldn't hire you either.
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Tangle writes:
Yes, we've been through that "symbol" nonsense before. My response has always been that removing the symbol doesn't remove the oppression. ringo writes:
blah blah blah How is a hijab different from a turban? How is a hijab different from a bindi? By what mechanism is banning the hijab supposed to prevent oppression? It's illegal to wear the hijab in public, so an oppressive husband forbids his wife and daughters to go out in public. The oppression magically disappears. It's the same as making alcohol magically disappear. Look, not a single bar in the whole town! Maybe Muslims will have to open speakeasies where they're free to practice their religion.
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