Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 52 (9179 total)
2 online now:
Newest Member: Jorge Parker
Happy Birthday: Theodoric
Post Volume: Total: 918,150 Year: 5,407/9,624 Month: 432/323 Week: 72/204 Day: 14/34 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Why did we stop inventing gods?
Phat
Member
Posts: 18435
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 149 of 203 (791204)
09-12-2016 5:08 PM
Reply to: Message 130 by jar
09-08-2016 8:32 AM


The GOD Whom Jesus Markets
jar writes:
The intent of the story tellers and the folk marketing Christianity today are entirely different.
Apart from the snake oil salesmen and telemarketing evangelists---whom many of us can see through---what was it that persuaded you that the rest of mainstream Protestantism--the Baptists, Assembly Of God, even Lutheran and Nazarene were also marketing differently than you believe?
My intent is not to market a God since I am very very sure that any God I can imagine or worship is totally different from GOD if GOD exists.
What about Jesus? Lets examine the GOD whom Jesus markets. Do you believe that GOD as you understand Him/Her/It is vastly different from the Father God that Jesus marketed..according to the Gospels?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by jar, posted 09-08-2016 8:32 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 150 by jar, posted 09-12-2016 5:21 PM Phat has replied
 Message 155 by ringo, posted 09-13-2016 11:50 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18435
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 151 of 203 (791211)
09-12-2016 6:04 PM
Reply to: Message 150 by jar
09-12-2016 5:21 PM


Re: The GOD Whom Jesus Markets
jar writes:
Your question has nothing to do with what you quoted my saying. I'm saying the folk marketing Christianity today have an entirely different intent than the folk that wrote the stories. In fact most of the story tellers almost certainly had no intent to ever say anything about Jesus or Christianity. The reason I say that is I actually read what was written.
Yes, but I was talking about marketing. Would you not agree that every club markets a different product?
jar writes:
I have no idea what God Jesus marketed or even a clue related to that. Jesus marketed a behavioral belief set rather than some God.
Do you believe that you market a behavioral belief set? I think you do. Many clubs and churches do also. The intent of my original question was how (according to the stories) did Jesus see God? Would Jesus have said--as you have--that
quote:
My intent is not to market a God since I am very very sure that any God I can imagine or worship is totally different from GOD if GOD exists.
Lets assume that Jesus would respond--when people asked Him to show us the father by saying "watch and learn".
Do you believe that Jesus knew His Father intimately or do you believe that Jesus had no clue how GOD looked or Who He Was?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 150 by jar, posted 09-12-2016 5:21 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 152 by jar, posted 09-12-2016 7:40 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18435
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 153 of 203 (791222)
09-12-2016 11:53 PM
Reply to: Message 152 by jar
09-12-2016 7:40 PM


Re: The GOD Whom Jesus Markets
jar writes:
On the first assumption I would say Jesus would say no such thing; rather he would say "Watch and learn how God wants you to behave."
So Jesus saw Himself as God? Would you behave that way?
On the second question I have no idea how Jesus when alive on Earth could know God intimately or what God looked like if God looks like anything or who God is.
So Jesus didn't recognize or know His Father? Seems you contradict yourself here...

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by jar, posted 09-12-2016 7:40 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 154 by jar, posted 09-13-2016 8:03 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18435
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 157 of 203 (791294)
09-14-2016 3:09 AM
Reply to: Message 156 by Greatest I am
09-13-2016 4:41 PM


Re: The GOD Whom Jesus Markets
yes but in the big picture what difference are you making by spending so much time starting so many blogs to discuss this? Are you actually doing anything for people? Do you feed,clothe,or encourage anyone? There will always be people who worship something you disagree with, but if God is not real what difference does it make? What is the god in you doing for humanity?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 156 by Greatest I am, posted 09-13-2016 4:41 PM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 158 by Tangle, posted 09-14-2016 5:56 AM Phat has replied
 Message 161 by Greatest I am, posted 09-14-2016 1:43 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18435
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 159 of 203 (791301)
09-14-2016 8:46 AM
Reply to: Message 158 by Tangle
09-14-2016 5:56 AM


Re: The GOD Whom Jesus Markets
no, but all he does is start topics with the same old stuff. I can see if a believer discusses God, but how can an unbeliever (or a believer in themselves) talk about what God or god or (insert deity here) does? For example, you comment on truth claims that we make by declaring that God doesnt exist...which is fine. GIA, however, has stated that humans are the "only god there is" and then talks about God as an evil tyrant for killing Jesus. How silly is that?
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 158 by Tangle, posted 09-14-2016 5:56 AM Tangle has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 162 by Greatest I am, posted 09-14-2016 1:50 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18435
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 166 of 203 (791375)
09-14-2016 8:14 PM
Reply to: Message 165 by Greatest I am
09-14-2016 8:08 PM


Re: Big Guy please report to the lab...
I suppose that technically you have a point...though I wish you would learn how to format. [qs ]insert message here [/ qs]
You and jar think similarly...even though jar claims to be a believer and you ...well...you believe that God is a creation of the human mind. Am I close?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 165 by Greatest I am, posted 09-14-2016 8:08 PM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 167 by Greatest I am, posted 09-14-2016 8:26 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18435
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 172 of 203 (791481)
09-16-2016 6:26 AM
Reply to: Message 152 by jar
09-12-2016 7:40 PM


Re: The GOD Whom Jesus Markets
jar writes:
I see no evidence that Jesus saw himself as God. He did see himself as a person carrying a message he thought was from God.
I believe He saw himself as Gods son. I believe he knew his Father intimately.
jar writes:
In fact I believe the Nicene Creed supports my position.
I know what you have said. You emphasize Jesus humanity because you feel that a God dying is no big deal and is not a sacrifice. The "was made man" part of the creed supports your position--but does not answer the question as to what the relationship was between the Creator of all seen and unseen and His one and only son. Yes, it is true that we all can follow Jesus in that we all can go and do for the least of these...you never seem to have had a problem with the second part of the greatest commandment. Where you stumble is in not being able to conceive of the Creator of all seen and unseen having a personal relationship with you---in that He listens to your prayers and will help you with whatever you ask---provided it conforms communion-wise with His will. A Father listens to the needs of His son(or daughter) and may not always buy them ice cream or fix their problems but will give them the strength to make it. Again, here is where we disagree. You guys will say that I have an idea of God the father as a disneyland dad...one who magically makes my challenges in life easier. This all stems from our differing ideas concerning the role of a Father.
GOD is not simply some unknowable complete abstract.
I doubt we will ever agree because you do not respect the Gospel of John, in my opinion. Granted you can provide some evidence as to its authorship but I feel that when it comes right down to where the rubber meets the road, you go with human evidence over the Creed.
I go with the Creed.
Granted I want the truth to be the way I felt that my own Father was towards me.
Perhaps your whole responsibility kick and unknowable God stem from the fact that your Father was somewhat distant and would not rescue you. I dunno...thats personal.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by jar, posted 09-12-2016 7:40 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 174 by jar, posted 09-16-2016 8:14 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 176 by Greatest I am, posted 09-16-2016 1:33 PM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18435
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 173 of 203 (791483)
09-16-2016 6:34 AM
Reply to: Message 167 by Greatest I am
09-14-2016 8:26 PM


Re: Big Guy please report to the lab...
If the supernatural and fantasy gods are not real then there is only one other source that could create the concept of god and that is man.
Quite easy to understand given Jung and Freud's Father Complex. Our instinctive guide to becoming the fittest of our species.
One side wants a Father who rescues us from our problems.
The other side wants us to tough it up as we are all spiritual orphans who need to grow and fix our own problems.
And you still never get past the idea of a "genocidal son murdering God."
The whole point is that you would have been the victim otherwise. Does that make you angry at God?
My whole abstract is based on several preconceptions.
Both you and jar preach to the atheists in that jar says we are responsible for the future rather than God
and you say that the God in us---(who you believe is us...) can make a better future. Both of you agree that the way God is portrayed in traditional Christianity is harmful.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 167 by Greatest I am, posted 09-14-2016 8:26 PM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 175 by ringo, posted 09-16-2016 12:17 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 177 by Greatest I am, posted 09-16-2016 1:47 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18435
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 187 of 203 (794664)
11-19-2016 9:55 AM
Reply to: Message 186 by Greatest I am
11-18-2016 6:14 PM


Re: 1 issue at a time. I have a question for you GIA (based on a sentence of yours)
I can tell you from experience that apotheosis is hard to take and I ended up on my knees when I experience mine.
Who were you on your knees to? Yourself? I can respect your beliefs only so far.
You think that belief in a power greater than yourself is scientifically silly...but scripture supports the western concept far more than the cherry picked scrip that supports your eastern concept.
When the truth is revealed fully to humanity, the scientific rational mind will be thoroughly blown away.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 186 by Greatest I am, posted 11-18-2016 6:14 PM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 188 by ringo, posted 11-19-2016 10:45 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 189 by jar, posted 11-19-2016 11:14 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 190 by Tangle, posted 11-19-2016 1:43 PM Phat has replied
 Message 191 by Greatest I am, posted 11-20-2016 11:40 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18435
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 193 of 203 (794823)
11-28-2016 12:34 PM
Reply to: Message 191 by Greatest I am
11-20-2016 11:40 AM


Re: 1 issue at a time. I have a question for you GIA (based on a sentence of yours)
Phat writes:
"Who were you on your knees to? Yourself?"
GIA writes:
In terms of the Father Complex, yes.
Why do you call it religion when it is only psychology?
GIA,cherrypicking my quote writes:
"You think that belief in a power greater than yourself"
Get the quote where I show such a notion and we can discuss it.
OK. First, my full quote,however.
Phat writes:
You think that belief in a power greater than yourself is scientifically silly...but scripture supports the western concept far more than the cherry picked scrip that supports your eastern concept.
I am asserting that you do not believe in God as an external reality but only as an internal rationality. Logic tells us that an internally generated "god" can never be greater than ourselves because it is in fact our self.
GIA writes:
Tell us who or what is hiding whatever truth you allude to please, and tell us why it is being hidden.
Quite simply---we humans by nature do not want anyone or anything to be in charge of us---except ourselves. You may assert that the truth has been hidden by organized religion. I would assert that the truth--that Jesus Christ is Lord and is alive today--is scoffed at by much of rationally minded society. Critics will point out that I am presenting my idea of the truth as established objective fact---and i cant argue otherwise. My basic argument is that God is not an invention of the human mind...though gods certainly are.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 191 by Greatest I am, posted 11-20-2016 11:40 AM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 203 by Greatest I am, posted 12-04-2016 7:04 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18435
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 194 of 203 (794824)
11-28-2016 12:51 PM
Reply to: Message 190 by Tangle
11-19-2016 1:43 PM


Ripleys Believe It or Not
The fact that it never ever happens is one of the reasons people are no longer believing this stuff.
The main reason that people no longer believe this stuff is because there are many more rational reasons not to believe. Logic and rationality will be the last to believe.
Belief is the pre requisite---and it logically makes little sense.
I believe that there is and will be a rational reason to believe.
Call me crazy.
Edited by Phat, : spelling

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 190 by Tangle, posted 11-19-2016 1:43 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 195 by Tangle, posted 11-28-2016 1:04 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18435
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 196 of 203 (794828)
11-28-2016 6:55 PM
Reply to: Message 195 by Tangle
11-28-2016 1:04 PM


Re: Ripleys Believe It or Not
Phat writes:
I believe that there is and will be a rational reason to believe.
Tangle writes:
Well this makes no sense at all does it?
I believe that I have found a rational reason in Jesus Christ.
Tangle writes:
Belief in the face of strong negative evidence is not rational...
Agreed. In your case, I'm not seeing the negative evidence so much as I am seeing a lack of any evidence. Do you have any negative evidence to present to me?
Tangle writes:
You spend very large quantities of your life counting angels on pin heads and praying for it to be true. It's such a waste of your energy and life. You'd be far better off just behaving like a decent person and getting on with it.
I never count angels.Just blessings. I am not a religious fanatic and thus never waste much time or energy at all---unless you count making these posts as a waste of time!
I do try and behave as a decent person would---and if i met you on the street you may not know I am religious at all. Some of my church would consider that a bad thing, but I believe that my God--if real---will Himself draw you into whatever He wants for you. If I tried to do it it would simply piss you off worse.
If I did know you--in person--I would attempt to simply behave as a decent person would behave. I would not try and convert you unless i felt a need to do so.
The reason I try here is because its a Forum. Perhaps now you can try and suggest something for me to improve my life.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 195 by Tangle, posted 11-28-2016 1:04 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 197 by Tangle, posted 11-29-2016 4:04 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18435
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 198 of 203 (794836)
11-29-2016 7:01 AM
Reply to: Message 197 by Tangle
11-29-2016 4:04 AM


Re: Ripleys Believe It or Not
why should i worry about how I am being treated? Why not just treat others better ?
Tangle writes:
You've found an emotional reason to believe...
Guilty.
why is your loving father treating you so badly?
I think I'm my own worst enemy at times. If I listened to my father I would fare better.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 197 by Tangle, posted 11-29-2016 4:04 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 199 by Tangle, posted 11-29-2016 7:21 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18435
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 200 of 203 (794869)
11-30-2016 1:31 PM
Reply to: Message 199 by Tangle
11-29-2016 7:21 AM


Re: Ripleys Believe It or Not
Why the hell wouldn't you???
Seems our argument is now focused on the concept of fate.
Some believe that either God causes it or satan causes it.
Others believe in strict determinism...Creator or no creator.
Still others believe that we become the decisions that we make.
Perhaps you hold to the view that if a God exists, He has the responsibility to micromanage determinism.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 199 by Tangle, posted 11-29-2016 7:21 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 201 by Tangle, posted 11-30-2016 2:15 PM Phat has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024