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Author Topic:   Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution.
Dredge
Member (Idle past 104 days)
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 1076 of 1311 (815885)
07-26-2017 2:30 AM
Reply to: Message 1066 by ringo
07-25-2017 11:51 AM


Re: Interesting question...
ringo writes:
Dredge writes:
It's a bit like asking, why did God make the sky blue and grass green?
Science knows the answer to both of those.
God could make the sky and grass any colour he wants to. Science can't explain why he chose blue and green, respectively.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1066 by ringo, posted 07-25-2017 11:51 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1092 by ringo, posted 07-26-2017 3:12 PM Dredge has replied

  
Dredge
Member (Idle past 104 days)
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


(1)
Message 1078 of 1311 (815887)
07-26-2017 2:39 AM
Reply to: Message 1077 by Tangle
07-26-2017 2:31 AM


Re: seven "assumptions"
Tangle writes:
And still they dishonestly quote mine despite it being pointed out over and over that Gould was a confirmed 'evolutionist' ... Why not read the whole article so that you don't keep making the same mistake?
The whole story is, Gould clearly saw the evidence for creation, but as a committed atheist, he tried to explain it away with his stupid PE theory. Predictably, many other atheists accepted PE as sound "science" ... any tin-pot idea will do, as long as it isn't creationism!
... Which reminds me of another committed atheist, Salvador Dali, who said, "I know from my study of science that there is a God ... but I don't believe it."
Edited by Dredge, : No reason given.
Edited by Dredge, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1077 by Tangle, posted 07-26-2017 2:31 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1079 by Tangle, posted 07-26-2017 3:03 AM Dredge has not replied
 Message 1089 by Taq, posted 07-26-2017 11:13 AM Dredge has replied

  
Dredge
Member (Idle past 104 days)
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 1094 of 1311 (815960)
07-27-2017 1:33 AM
Reply to: Message 1082 by Pressie
07-26-2017 8:33 AM


Re: five reasons
Pressie writes:
So, in the end Dredge is basically insane in him/her quote-mining Gould for YEC creationism. That's what I thought.
Except Dredge is not YEC.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1082 by Pressie, posted 07-26-2017 8:33 AM Pressie has not replied

  
Dredge
Member (Idle past 104 days)
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 1095 of 1311 (815961)
07-27-2017 2:32 AM
Reply to: Message 1083 by New Cat's Eye
07-26-2017 8:37 AM


Re: Insecticide resistance
NewCatsEye writes:
The way Genesis is written (at least in the NIV), when the Lord speaks to Adam & Eve it has quotation marks around exactly like when the snake is speaking to Eve. They're both characters in the myth that speak to Adam & Eve in the same way as any other conversation would go. There's no reason to think that it was telepathic and not verbal.
So when Satan communicated his will to Judas Iscariot, do you imagine he did so in an audible voice that everyone could hear, or was the communication achieved silently? If silently, how does that work?
Edited by Dredge, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1083 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-26-2017 8:37 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1098 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-27-2017 11:11 AM Dredge has replied
 Message 1100 by ringo, posted 07-27-2017 12:36 PM Dredge has not replied

  
Dredge
Member (Idle past 104 days)
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 1096 of 1311 (815962)
07-27-2017 2:46 AM
Reply to: Message 1089 by Taq
07-26-2017 11:13 AM


Re: seven "assumptions"
Taq writes:
Dredge writes:
The whole story is, Gould clearly saw the evidence for creation, but as a committed atheist, he tried to explain it away with his stupid PE theory.
This is called "putting words in other peoples' mouths". This is as dishonest as it gets.
Not only was Gould's "science" the result of an atheism-inspired, a priori commitment to evolution, his pathetic PE was just a re-hash of spontaneous generation - superstition, in other words.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1089 by Taq, posted 07-26-2017 11:13 AM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1097 by Tanypteryx, posted 07-27-2017 10:45 AM Dredge has replied
 Message 1099 by Taq, posted 07-27-2017 12:33 PM Dredge has not replied

  
Dredge
Member (Idle past 104 days)
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 1101 of 1311 (816019)
07-28-2017 1:26 AM
Reply to: Message 1080 by Pressie
07-26-2017 7:20 AM


Re: seven "assumptions"
Pressie writes:
Stephen Jay Gould:
"Since we proposed punctuated equilibria to explain trends, it is infuriating to be quoted again and again by creationistswhether through design or stupidity, I do not knowas admitting that the fossil record includes no transitional forms. Transitional forms are generally lacking at the species level, but they are abundant between larger groups."
The trouble is, not all paleontologists share Gould's view that "transitional forms ... are abundant between larger groups":
"Darwin predicted that the fossil record should show a reasonably smooth continuum of ancestor-descendant pairs with a satisfactory number of intermediates between major groups ... Such smooth transitions were not found in Darwin's time ... We are now more than a hundred years after Darwin and little has changed ... and the basic situation is not much changed ... We actuallty have fewer examples of smooth tranistions than we had in Darwin's time, because some of the old examples have turned out to be invalid ...
If Darwin were writing today he would still have to cite a disturbing lack of missing links or transitional forms between the major groups of organisms." - David Raup, from an essay in Godfrey's Scientists Confront Creationism.
S. J. Gould: "The extreme rarity of transitional forms in the fossil record persists as the trade secret of paleontology."
This begs the question: Why is it "a trade secret"? Does keeping things "secret" sound like what goes on in honest science?
Niles Eldredge: "We paleontologist have said that the history of life supports [gradual change], all the while really knowing that it does not."
Translation: Evolutionary scientists tell lies. Golly gosh, doesn't that come as a surprise!
S. J. Gould: "We can tell tales of improvement for some groups, but in honest moments we must admit that the history of complex life (ie, the fossil record) is more a story of multifarious variations about a set of basis designs than than a saga of accumulating excellence."
This is the same man who said "transitional forms ... are abundant between larger groups." Make up your mind!
Edited by Dredge, : No reason given.
Edited by Dredge, : No reason given.
Edited by Dredge, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1080 by Pressie, posted 07-26-2017 7:20 AM Pressie has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1117 by Taq, posted 07-28-2017 10:37 AM Dredge has not replied
 Message 1120 by dwise1, posted 07-28-2017 11:20 AM Dredge has not replied
 Message 1123 by dwise1, posted 07-28-2017 2:36 PM Dredge has replied

  
Dredge
Member (Idle past 104 days)
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 1102 of 1311 (816020)
07-28-2017 1:33 AM
Reply to: Message 1092 by ringo
07-26-2017 3:12 PM


Re: Interesting question...
ringo writes:
Dredge writes:
God could make the sky and grass any colour he wants to. Science can't explain why he chose blue and green, respectively.
Science can and does explain why the sky IS blue and the grass IS green. You can put any fairy-tale spin on it that you want but that's not as satisfying as knowing.
You've missed my point. Explaining "how" is not explaining "why".

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1092 by ringo, posted 07-26-2017 3:12 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1121 by ringo, posted 07-28-2017 11:36 AM Dredge has not replied

  
Dredge
Member (Idle past 104 days)
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 1104 of 1311 (816022)
07-28-2017 1:38 AM
Reply to: Message 1088 by Taq
07-26-2017 11:11 AM


Re: Interesting question...
Taq writes:
Dredge writes:
Agree. But the existence of nested hierarchies doesn't rule out the existence of a Common Designer. How do know the Creator doesn't have a penchant for nested hierarchies?
How do you know that he does? The burden of proof lies with you to demonstrate that life was created.
I don't know that he does - I'm saying it's entirely possible that he does.
Porsches don't fall into a nested hierarchy.
What is the difference between Porsche making a 'family' of sports cars and a nested hierarchy?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1088 by Taq, posted 07-26-2017 11:11 AM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1106 by CRR, posted 07-28-2017 2:18 AM Dredge has not replied
 Message 1115 by JonF, posted 07-28-2017 8:49 AM Dredge has not replied
 Message 1116 by Taq, posted 07-28-2017 10:36 AM Dredge has not replied

  
Dredge
Member (Idle past 104 days)
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 1105 of 1311 (816023)
07-28-2017 1:52 AM
Reply to: Message 1097 by Tanypteryx
07-27-2017 10:45 AM


Re: seven "assumptions"
Tanypteryx writes:
So you haven't read the Gould and Eldrige paper about Punctuated Equilibrium or any of his books or other papers.
You seem pretty angry about the guy, considering you don't know shit about him.
Angry? Actually Gould and Eldrige (sic*) seem to be more honest than most about what the fossil record reveals.
* The correct spelling is Eldredge (think of El Dredge, which is what my many fans in Mexico call me).
-----------------------------------------------------
While Gould admits that the fossil record is characterised by "sudden appearance" and "stasis', is seems that it never occurred to him that this is the exact opposite of what Darwinian theory predicts.
Edited by Dredge, : No reason given.
Edited by Dredge, : No reason given.
Edited by Dredge, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1097 by Tanypteryx, posted 07-27-2017 10:45 AM Tanypteryx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1144 by Tanypteryx, posted 07-30-2017 3:04 PM Dredge has replied

  
Dredge
Member (Idle past 104 days)
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 1107 of 1311 (816025)
07-28-2017 2:23 AM
Reply to: Message 1098 by New Cat's Eye
07-27-2017 11:11 AM


Re: Insecticide resistance
NewCatsEye writes:
Dredge writes:
So when Satan communicated his will to Judas Iscariot, do you imagine he did so in an audible voice that everyone could hear, or was the communication achieved silently? If silently, how does that work?
I dunno, quote the relevant passages and let's look at them.
John 13:27: "As soon as Judas took the bread, Satan entered into him. So Jesus told him, "What you are about to do, do quickly.""
How did Judas know what to do? Satan told him, of course, but there is no evidence in the Gospel account of anyone else in the room hearing what Satan said to him, except Jesus.
Furthermore, if you study accounts of demonic possession, the demon can only make itself heard in a physical, audible sense through the mouth of the human victim; otherwise it is silent.
Interestingly, there are no accounts in the Bible of a demon ever appearing in the form of a human being (unlike accounts of the "good" angels who do take the form of humans). It seems demons need to possess humans or other creatures in order to manifest themselves in any physical sense.
Edited by Dredge, : No reason given.
Edited by Dredge, : No reason given.
Edited by Dredge, : No reason given.
Edited by Dredge, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1098 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-27-2017 11:11 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1122 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-28-2017 12:07 PM Dredge has replied

  
Dredge
Member (Idle past 104 days)
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


(1)
Message 1108 of 1311 (816026)
07-28-2017 3:14 AM


I wish to recant my statement that Stephen Jay Gould was an atheist. As far as I can ascertain, he was agnostic.
Edited by Dredge, : No reason given.

Replies to this message:
 Message 1109 by Tangle, posted 07-28-2017 3:17 AM Dredge has replied
 Message 1119 by dwise1, posted 07-28-2017 11:09 AM Dredge has not replied

  
Dredge
Member (Idle past 104 days)
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


(1)
Message 1110 of 1311 (816028)
07-28-2017 3:37 AM
Reply to: Message 1109 by Tangle
07-28-2017 3:17 AM


Tangle writes:
It's more important that you retract your statement that evolution=atheism.
It would be more accurate to say evolution = atheist theology.
Michael Ruse, professor of philosophy and zoology at the University of Guelph, Canada (National Post, May 13, 2000, pp. B1,B3,B7):
"Evolution is promoted by its practitioners as more than mere science. Evolution is promulgated as an ideology, a secular religiona full-fledged alternative to Christianity, with meaning and morality. Evolution is a religion. This was true of evolution in the beginning, and it is true of evolution still today. Evolution therefore came into being as a kind of secular ideology, an explicit substitute for Christianity."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1109 by Tangle, posted 07-28-2017 3:17 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1111 by Tangle, posted 07-28-2017 4:01 AM Dredge has replied
 Message 1114 by Percy, posted 07-28-2017 8:45 AM Dredge has replied
 Message 1118 by Taq, posted 07-28-2017 10:45 AM Dredge has not replied

  
Dredge
Member (Idle past 104 days)
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 1147 of 1311 (816166)
07-31-2017 1:19 AM
Reply to: Message 1123 by dwise1
07-28-2017 2:36 PM


Re: seven "assumptions"
dwise1 writes:
Sage advice to anyone reading a creationist quote: always check to find out what they are hiding in those ellipses (the "..."). Of course, there are some valid uses for ellipses, but creationist use is commonly to leave out necessary context so that they can change the meaning In order to misrepresent the source."
For the sake of brevity, I didn't quote Raup word-for-word, but used only what was necessary to get the point across, without distorting its meaning. You have supplied the full wording of the quote in question, thinking that by doing so you have proven that my abbreviated version is misleading and dishonest. Sorry, no cigar. Anyone (of sound mind, that is) who compares both texts will see that what I left out is irrelevant and what I left in is faithful to the original meaning.
You then supplied Raup's excuses for why there is a lack of transitionals between larger groups of organisms - which I didn't bother mentioning because
a) they're so lame and unconvincing - two of them are just laughable ... the fossil record is incomplete and PE,
and
b) they're irrelevant to the point I was trying to make - that Gould claimed he could point to an abundance of transitionals between the larger groups, but Raup can't.
As for the rest of your bloated post ... er, why did you bother?
So to sum up, your attempt to malign me failed miserably. You got all excited and frothy-at-the-mouth for nothing. Try again some other time.
dwise1 writes:
Why does your religion have to depend almost completely on lies?
I have no idea what you're talking about.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1123 by dwise1, posted 07-28-2017 2:36 PM dwise1 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1151 by CRR, posted 07-31-2017 1:37 AM Dredge has not replied
 Message 1160 by dwise1, posted 07-31-2017 10:43 AM Dredge has replied

  
Dredge
Member (Idle past 104 days)
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 1149 of 1311 (816168)
07-31-2017 1:30 AM
Reply to: Message 1133 by PaulK
07-29-2017 3:22 AM


Re: Gould's observations do support Creationism
PaulK writes:
Please explain what is laughable about using an idea already widely accepted in evolutionary biology to explain a feature of the fossil record."
Evolutionary biology - real biology's wacko little brother - is notorious for it pseudo-scientific ideas. Relying on evolutionary biology to explain the fossil record is like relying on Jehovah's Witnesses to explain the Bible.
While there are many transitionals - as Gould said - which are evidence for evolution at the higher taxonomic levels.
Yeah, right - if you figure in huge doses of wishful thinking and a very vivid imagination. Take Archaeopteryx, for example:
"Paleontologists have tried to turn Archaeopteryx into an earth-bound, feathered dinosaur. But it's not. It is a bird, a perching bird. And no amount of 'paleobabble' is going to change that." - Dr. Alan Feduccia
Edited by Dredge, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1133 by PaulK, posted 07-29-2017 3:22 AM PaulK has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1161 by Taq, posted 07-31-2017 10:45 AM Dredge has not replied

  
Dredge
Member (Idle past 104 days)
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 1150 of 1311 (816169)
07-31-2017 1:35 AM
Reply to: Message 1122 by New Cat's Eye
07-28-2017 12:07 PM


NewCatsEye writes:
It doesn't say anything about Satan speaking to Judas, but this is way too off topic.
So why do you imagine "Satan entered Judas?" Was it to merely play around in his intestines, or maybe to tickle his ribs from the inside? Probably not. I suggest Satan entered Judas to mess with his mind; to "speak" to Judas in order to make him do his will ... which was to betray Jesus.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1122 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-28-2017 12:07 PM New Cat's Eye has seen this message but not replied

  
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