|
Register | Sign In |
|
QuickSearch
Thread ▼ Details |
|
Thread Info
|
|
|
Author | Topic: Evangelical Switch from Pro-choice to Anti-abortion | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
All that is just sophistry to rationalize killing a developing human being. By your standard it's OK to kill the child minutes before birth because it hasn't yet taken its first breath.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Tangle Member Posts: 9514 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8
|
Possibly for the first time I find myself agreeing with Faith.
I'm not anti-abortion and I don't call it murder, but we are intentionally ending a life. It's just something we have to live with ourselves over and not try to fool ourselves that it's ok for some semi-arbitrary reason like a 12 week date.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Percy Member Posts: 22504 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.9 |
Faith writes: All that is just sophistry to rationalize killing a developing human being. By your standard it's OK to kill the child minutes before birth because it hasn't yet taken its first breath. It isn't my standard. I'm not a Bible believer, remember. I'm just citing where the Bible says that life begins with the first breath. As I just said in the message you replied to, at best the Bible is equivocal about when a fetus is a human being, saying different things in different places. But the earliest reference, and therefore certainly the most reliable, is where Genesis says taking a breath defines life. If you disagree take it up with the Bible, not me. My responsibility ends at keeping you from ignoring certain Biblical passages and pointing out that the what the Bible says is not unequivocal. I've been arguing the highly ambiguous Bible position because you're a Bible believing Christian. I have not been arguing my own personal beliefs which are not taken from the Bible. --Percy Edited by Percy, : Typo, plus add a sentence to the end of the first paragraph.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Percy Member Posts: 22504 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.9
|
Tangle writes: I'm not anti-abortion and I don't call it murder, but we are intentionally ending a life. It's just something we have to live with ourselves over and not try to fool ourselves that it's ok for some semi-arbitrary reason like a 12 week date. I've never figured out an answer myself. My thoughts run generally along these lines which only raise more questions:
So when does human life begin? The details of thinking through these issues change with each attempt, and I never arrive at any definite answer. --Percy
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
We can only have concern for what we know, and that is that a growing embryo will become a fullfledged human being if we don't kill it. We can't be concerned about something at the level of a just-fertilized egg. Yes it is a practical matter. Yes I'm sure they are human life but probably flawed, deformed, would probably be stillborn if they implanted and grew. When a miscarriage occurs after enough time in a wanted pregnancy to anticipate the birth of a baby, then the parents are pretty sad about it. None of this justifies willfully taking its life.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
NoNukes Inactive Member |
We can only have concern for what we know, and that is that a growing embryo will become a fullfledged human being if we don't kill it. You skipped some steps. You just argued that a growing embryo is a potential human life and then jumped to a conclusion based on not ending a human life. If I skipped some more steps I could make a case against all contraceptive means including abstinence are unjustified. I would not do that because that would be stupid. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door! We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World. Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
I think there may be some problems with contraception from a Christian point of view, but I'm not going to argue about that. I'd rather start where we know we've got a growing baby, where we know we're killing a living human being.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
|
Faith writes:
Don't lose the plot here. The point of the thread is that evangelicals never used to see it that way. They saw it as the Bible sees it - that the fetus is not a "human being". I'd rather start where we know we've got a growing baby, where we know we're killing a living human being. The change in their policy came about the same time that abortion became a safe and accepted medical procedure. It was a reaction to reality, not a reflection of doctrine.And our geese will blot out the sun.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
I disagree with that supposed biblical doctrine but killing unborn babies at the rate of fifty million since Roe v Wade, or probably more by now, is not defensible, period.
Again, because we KNOW it's a growing baby. And I'd have to ask if you are talking about all Christian denominations or perhaps just the liberal ones. NEver mind, I remember you mentioned Baptists. Before Roe v Wade I'd also doubt it was a prominent enough issue in the minds of Christians to have a clear doctrinal position on it anyway. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Tangle Member Posts: 9514 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8
|
Percy writes: So when does human life begin? The only point in the process we can name as a definitive start point of human life is conception. At that point we know a full human will emerge if everything goes to plan. The rest is rationalisation.
The details of thinking through these issues change with each attempt, and I never arrive at any definite answer. I think that's because there is no 'answer', if we're honest, we know we're rationalising to make us feel better about something we know in our guts is a wrong.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Faith writes:
I'll point out again that it's the evangelical viewpoint that you're disagreeing with.
I disagree with that supposed biblical doctrine... Faith writes:
And I'll point out again that I'm not defending it. ... but killing unborn babies at the rate of fifty million since Roe v Wade, or probably more by now, is not defensible, period.And our geese will blot out the sun.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
NoNukes Inactive Member |
I think there may be some problems with contraception from a Christian point of view, but I'm not going to argue about that. I'd rather start where we know we've got a growing baby, where we know we're killing a living human being. You are still skipping the steps where the potential human being becomes a human being and pretending not to do that. I know you'd rather start with your conclusion, but that's nonsense. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door! We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World. Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
It's a human being from conception. All this hairsplitting sophistry is what is nonsense. I'm not skipping over anything. I'm just saying we are responsible for what we KNOW, not what we don't know. If the fertilized egg doesn't implant then it was a human life that died of natural causes. That was the context, and if we are not aware of any of it we have no responsibility for it or any reaction to it and it's all just a point of sophistry that means nothing. But when we have a known pregnancy we know it's a developing human being. If it dies of natural causes after we know this then the normal reaction is to mourn. We have n o cause at any point to willfully kill it.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
I should have said that the unborn child's being the property of the father has nothing to do with whether it is a living human being and it makes no sense that anyone ever used that as an argument for abortion.
You say you aren't for abortion, but you also aren't against it so that's what I keep responding to.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
|
Faith writes:
But of course it does. It's regarded like an ox - a living being and a valuable one but not a human one.
I should have said that the unborn child's being the property of the father has nothing to do with whether it is a living human being... Faith writes:
It's not an argument "for" abortion. It just denies the "human" argument against abortion. It's what Judaism has always taught and apparently it's what evangelical Christianity taught until recently. And that isn't surprising because it's what the Bible says. ... and it makes no sense that anyone ever used that as an argument for abortion. And if you were honest you would recognize that. You don't advocate executing women who have abortions, so you don't honestly consider abortion murder - so you don' t honestly consider the unborn fetus human.And our geese will blot out the sun.
|
|
|
Do Nothing Button
Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved
Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024