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Author | Topic: Evangelical Switch from Pro-choice to Anti-abortion | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Stile writes: In this sense I think morality is society's business such that the society (and those looking to visit or join that society) should know what's currently expected/understood by that society and be able to explain it to visitors or possible new comers. I don't see that as relevant at all. It would be relevant if you change morality to behavior.
Stile writes: This would be on the level of developing justice/police systems so that the society can deal with issues that affect the people making up the society. Again, I do not see how morality enters. Germany between 1933 and 1946 had a functioning justice/police system so that the society dealt with issues that affected the people making up the society. If we look at societies throughout history we tend to find when "morality" becomes the driving force the general result is oppression. Edited by jar, : fix dates and sub-title
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jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Stile writes: jar writes: Again, I do not see how morality enters. Germany between 1939 and 1946 had a functioning justice/police system so that the society dealt with issues that affected the people making up the society. Yeah. And Germany's functioning justice/police system was based on their morality. It was just a morality that I do not care very much for. However, many of the people-in-power at the time did care about such a morality. So much so that they had it strictly enforced. Again... I don't think I understand what you're attempting to get at.I can see how "a good-natured" morality doesn't enter into Germany's justice/police system of that time. But their society certainly adhered to a certain morality. jar writes: If we look at societies throughout history we tend to find when "morality" becomes the driving force the general result is oppression. I agree that if we look at all the times oppression happened... then we see that "morality" was usually the driving force. However: If we look at all the times where good progress and growth happened... then we see that "morality" was usually the driving force then as well. Perhaps "morality" is a driving force for many things. Yes... and no. I agree that sometimes morality can drive good changes in a society but the real advances seem to come from reality/evidence based forces rather than feeling of whether something is moral. Advances in technology, transportation, communication, health care all tend to be driven by reality and actual evidence and can and have happened in societies we consider moral, amoral and downright immoral. The issue though is laws. And there I think morality really has no place.
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jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Faith writes: Is murder a moral offense? Does it concern society or just the murderer and his victim? Is stealing a moral offense? Does it concern society or just the robber and his victim? Is fraud a moral offense? Does it concern society or just the defrauder and his victim? Murder can be moral or immoral; the same can be said for fraud and stealing.
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jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined:
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Faith writes: What if you just start at the fully formed baby within minutes of birth: why or why not do you regard it as human and would you ever support aborting it at that stage and for what reasons? How about a month before its due date? Two months? Three months? and so on. Until you find the point at which you definitely don't think of it as human and definitely think abortion is a reasonable solution to what you regard as a difficult situation? You really don't seem to understand the issue. What you think is reasonable is totally irrelevant to the question. It is what the biological mother (primarily) and the father (secondarily and conditionally) and any non-biological mother or father think is reasonable that counts.
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jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Faith writes: I disagree. No one doubts that you disagree but at least so far (Thank God) in the US imposing personal morals on other people is Unconstitutional. That is true of abortion and marriage and sex and beliefs and which god or gods to worship and hopefully it will remain that way even through the current assault on basic human rights being waged by today's so called "conservatives".
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jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined:
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Faith writes: Kiling a human being cannot possibly sanely be construed as a merely personal matter. And just to counter another of your wacko opinions, forcing Christians to accept gay marriage as legitimate is a violation of freedom of religion. And again, you are simply posting falsehoods and unsupported assertions. It is not established that an unborn child is a human or that in the case of an unborn child that keeping it from being born is killing. Second, no Christian in the US has ever been forced to accept gay marriage as legitimate.
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jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Faith writes: At least five Christian businesses have been punished for refusing to accept gay marriage as legitimate. No Faith, that is NOT true. Businesses have been punished for not following the law. No one cares whether or not they believe the marriage is legitimate or not.
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jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Faith writes: Why are you such a word twisting sophist? The law is what forces Christians to treat gay marriage as legitimate. Stop twisting things. No again that is not true. It tells the baker to bake cakes or the florist to sell flowers. Whether the wedding cake is for a mixed sex marriage or a prop for a photo shoot or a same sex marriage is irrelevant. What the baker thinks about someone else marriage is irrelevant. What "God's Law" is is irrelevant. This is the US thank God! They are free to think that the marriage is not legitimate.
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jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Faith writes: THAT IS A BALD-FACED STUPID LIE WHEN WE KNOW CHRISTIANS ARE PUNISHED FOR REFUSING TO RECOGNIZE GAY MARRIAGE BY REFUSING TO SERVE A GAY WEDDING. STOP WITH THE LYING TWISTING SOPHISTRY! They are not punished for refusing to recognize a gay wedding as valid but only for refusing to bake a cake, regardless of the reason. If they bake the cake and tell the buyers "You know, I still don't recognize your marriage as legitimate>" then all would be fine. The bakers would still be ignorant bigots but would not be criminals.
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jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Faith writes: That is not true.; They are specifically charged with discrimination. Exactly. They are not charged with failure to consider a gay marriage as legitimate. They remain ignorant bigot criminals.
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jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Tangle writes: You say that it's the woman's choice, that the government has no role to play. I ask you whether the woman can terminate her pregnancy a day before term. You refuse to answer because you lack information. But life is not like that. We have to have an answer. What is it? There is no ‘don't know’ here, a policy is required. The options are no abortion, woman's choice or some regulated methodology Why do we need an answer? Why can't the answer be different for every instance? Edited by jar, : left out be
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jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
And I will give you the same answer; I have absolutely no way to know or tell.
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jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
After a child is born it is impossible to abort the child.
If it was one tenth of a second before the child was born I would give you the prior answer, I simply do not have enough information to make a judgement. I have no way to know or tell.
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jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Tangle writes: But 1/10th of a second earlier you suddenly have no opinion. Liar, liar, pants on fire. No Tangle, it's just that I'm honest. The point you seem to have failed to understand is that my opinion, whatever it might be, is totally irrelevant to the issue when it comes to abortion.
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jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined:
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Tangle writes: 'Your' opinion is short hand for society's opinion. If your own opinion mirrored sociey's we would allow abortion at term and that would be murder.
But my opinion is not universal, it is my opinion and so irrelevant.
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