Evangelical Switch from Pro-choice to Anti-abortion

At least five Christian businesses have been punished for refusing to accept gay marriage as legitimate.And there is no doubt that the fetus is a living human being by all the evidence I've given.There's been plenty of support given and I'm not talking "falsehoods." You lie through your teeth about that. You just blather out the false accusations assuming you can get away with it here, and unfortunately you probably can.

Why are you such a word twisting sophist? The law is what forces Christians to treat gay marriage as legitimate. Stop twisting things.

I already many times described the better solutions as providing for the woman's needs during pregnancy and birth, explaining options for adotion or keeping it herself, and all kinds of other services that are now provided by many churches that could be expanded and emphasized instead of the current emphasis on abortion that also denies the woman the basic information about the living human being in her womb.It's only a "process" the same way any growing child is a process. The word is meaningless and just a way to distance us from the fact of its being a living humaqn being.Yes there are no real "uncertainties" or "unanswerable questions" when you face the fact that it is a living developing human being. That fact has a way of ending all those manufactured doubts. They are ALL a product of not seeing the fetus as a human being.If the problem is "when does a fetus become a human being" it is NOT clear that there are no answers: I've answered that in terms of its genetic constitution and the fact that if nothing interferes it will inexorably grow into a full human being from conception. Obviously you aren't happy with that definition so what is yours? I asked Stile that too. Where do YOU want to draw the line before which it is not human and after which it is?I've been giving actual OBJECTIVE reasons why it is a human being from conception, starting with its genetic constitution: the DNA defines it. It's all in place, and the fact that if nothing interferes WE ALL KNOW it will grow into a full human being and to deny this is to engage in self-deception. THIS IS OBJECTIVE FACT.But if YOU want to define things differently go ahead. Your problem is that you have no OBJECTIVE way to do that, all you have is how you feel about it at different stages. If you want to draw lines between pre-human and potential human and so on, go ahead. Let's see your reasoning. If you want to define it on that basis you can do that, but it isn't an objective standard.There IS no "anti-abortion industry," nobody is making money off of fighting abortion, it costs us money, it requires donations and a lot of unpaid volunteers. They usually maintain a house where pregnant girls and women can live during the pregnancy, they provide help with schooling and qualifying for work, getting welfare funding when possible, and making decisions about their future in general whether they keep or give up the baby, and more than that. The one in my area is supported by all the local churches.I have not lied about Planned Parenthood and you don't say how I have. They DO work to prevent the pregnant woman from seeing the evidence that she is carrying a human being rather than a piece of tissue or whatnot. Why else do they get so upset when pro-lifers gather outside with the intention of giving their clients that information?WHAT I MEANT ABOUT SHOWING THAT THE FETUS IS HUMAN, and in fact have said many times already so don't accuse me of failing to show it, IS THAT WE CAN SEE IT IS HUMAN ON THE ULTRASOUND AT TWELVE WEEKS. IT IS FULLY HUMAN, IT IS ALIVE, IT LOOKS HUMAN AND IT ACTS HUMAN.Oh blah blah blah to all your twistings of my motivations. Try arguing fairly.How do I explain the evangelical flip? I think they Got Real. I didn't know they had denied the humanness of the fetus before, but that certainly needed to be corrected. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

THAT IS A BALD-FACED STUPID LIE WHEN WE KNOW CHRISTIANS ARE PUNISHED FOR REFUSING TO RECOGNIZE GAY MARRIAGE BY REFUSING TO SERVE A GAY WEDDING. STOP WITH THE LYING TWISTING SOPHISTRY!Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

That is not true.; They are specifically charged with discrimination.

;I have no idea where you are getting this idea but it must be some version of the usual EVC hairsplitting mania and utterly meaningless. Just read what I've actually said and stop putting words in my mouth.

I'd guess you are avoiding thinking about how it probably really is a human being so until you see it that way you aren't going to have any definite feelings about it. The3 most frequent situation is that we all convince ourselves it's not a human being to justify abortion, a "woman's right" or however you think of it, but something suddenly makes the person aware that it really really is a human being and then you have the feelings appropriate to that. Although I had a dream that it was a child it didn't affect my feelings, I just thought it was interesting, but much later when a saw a pro-life film that SHOWED me it is a human being I couldn't stop ;crying for days.

I gave you my evidence, it's actual evidence, actuals\ objective evide3nce. You people really cannot think. Of course I need to give up expecting anything rational from EvC. Nothing but sophistry and other wacko stuff, and you all congratulate each other on the wackiness. I don't remember people being this mentally deranged back before I became a Christian, I wonder what has happened.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Oh good Planned Parenthood may have acquired some sense, but I wouldn't count on it meaning they encourage thinking of it as a human being and, or have stopped emphasizing abortion as the best solujtion.I'm not going to continue this argument, your usual hairsplitting nitpicking irrelevant nonsense won't yield to reason.

That is not what I did. I gave real evidence. Idiot.How do I know evangelicals were wrpmg?. What you mean is "Who are you to tell anybody they are wrong?" If you don't see the reasoning, forget it.

OK, so you are going by its appearsnce.But if nothing interferes with its growth, it will grow to be a human being and we all know this, and this is the evidence that it is human at conception. "interfere" means opposes its natural growth, the way you are using it is not interference, it's just the natural environment in which it grows that is taken for granted in what I'm saying. Under normal circumstances it will grow into a clearly recognizable human being and we all know this and that's the evidence but I guess you can make your argument based on appearance. It's based on the ultrasound videos taken at that time in many pregnancies, which I have described. It is indeed obvious. The entire form is there from head to toes on the feet and fingers on the hands. You can tell the sex at that age, It keeps moving around, it's alive and it is a baby. It has a lot of developing to do but it is obviously a baby at that age, there is no question. There are videos of it at You Tube but most aren't as clear as the ones I saw of my two grandsons so I didn't pick one to link here. So are you saying yhou want to draw the line at the point it looks to you like a human? Do you know what age that would be?But my argument is that although it doesn't yet look like a human being it is human because we know it's got the DNA that will cause it to develop into a human and if we just leave it alone to develop normally it wilol become a human being. It's already got all the genetic stuff, and if everything is normal all we have to do is leave it alone.But if you want to argue that it has to LOOK like a human being to be considered a human being I guess you can make thjat argument and define where it changes into a human being. Somewhere between say maybe eleven and thirteen weeks? Well, not really. One twelve-weeks ultrasound looks pretty much like another, all the same body parts apparent including toes and fingers, the sex identifiable, the baby moving around, and you can hear the heartbeat, Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

I think it was Heathen who said it has brain waves at this age, which shows some brain development. I'd guess it is possible to know when brain function develops, also when the heart begins beating, all those developmental things.Isn't there pretty clearly a big difference between a brain-dead adult who we know is never going to come back barring a miracle, and a normally developing fetus whose brain is in the process of growing and will certainly become a fully functioning human brain if we don't kill it?No, I present the image as objective evidence of its humanness, not as an appeal to emotion, because I personally find it compelling evidence in itself that it is human, though yes I would suppose most others do too -- particularly of course because it is ACTING alive, moving etc. If it was in fact brain-dead we're not talking about normal development. I know some babies are born without brains which is a horrible tragedy but I'm trying to keep the focus on normal development. If it was truly dead and not going to grow any more, it would be stillborn and that is something else, but we're talking about normal development from stage to stage.But OK you want to define its humanness by brain function or other function rather than appearance or form? So are we still talking about finding the point before which you could advocate aborting it because it isn't human, and after which you couldn't?I don't know when particular functions develop though I suppose the information is available. Do you think you could define the point I'm asking about? What functions would have to be present or absent?

I'm sick of the sophistry and the mindless stupid accusations.

I'm out of town on a computer that's awkward for me so I won't be able to answer fully until next week some time.