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Author | Topic: Christianity and the End Times | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Faith writes:
The problem you guys have is that you misunderstand what "follow" and 'believe" mean. Sheep do, in fact, follow their shepherd and do what he wants them to do. Whether or not they believe his pedigree is not important. The definition of a follower of Christ is a sheep.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
ringo writes: In this case, I go with evidence. I do not see the stories as accurately nor actually representing GOD as to what He inferred to the humans of that time. I also see jars argument concerning the lack of evuidence of a bottleneck (hourglass shape) in the fossil record which would be the case if the flood were literal. That being said, I believe that as a parable the story stands on its own merits. It would make no sense for a God to need to do such a thing if in fact He foreknew the end result. And even if He did not, what would make Him think that the new people from Noah and family would behave any better than the old bunch did?(given a few generations) In conclusion, I dont see God as directly doing such things. The fact that it was written that way only means that the authors wrote it as they understood it...not necessarily how it was. What would you think of a human who caused a gigantic flood that killed millions of people? What would you think of a human who threatened to torture millions with fire? You'd have the same assessment of your God as I do if you weren't working so hard at doublethink. God is beyond word for word literalism. God represents thought for thought introspection and personal growth within the humans who commune with Him. Understanding of God is still evolving as we learn more. Only fools think we have outgrown Him or the need for Him. We humans will never attain full potential without help.
We're talking about God here. Why would God be afraid of people eating his food? The question is whether God would tolerate people in His house who had a free and rebellious will that overrode His authority. You may describe Him as weak because of this, but the implications of Him controlling everyone are scarier.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
The problem you guys have is that you misunderstand what "follow" and 'believe" mean. Sheep do, in fact, follow their shepherd and do what he wants them to do. Whether or not they believe his pedigree is not important. It is important. The original sheep were the created angels, according to dogma. One of them decided he wanted to have his run of the place with no acknowledgment of the host. He ceased following at that point and became a rogue leader. A house divided against itself will not stand. Thus, the cherub got booted. My argument concerning you opening your house to any and all carries the same potential problem. Some of whom you invite in will not listen to your house rules. Every house needs rules. Even if you were powerful enough to make all of them listen, your character would be such that you allow your guests autonomy. With autonomy comes the risk of rogues like satan rearing their rebellious little heads and running amuck.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Why cherry-pick one case to accept the evidence and reject all of the others? Why not go with the fact that there is no evidence of Jesus' resurrection?
In this case, I go with evidence. Phat writes:
Clearly not. Why do you keep bringing up that falsehood?
God represents thought for thought introspection and personal growth within the humans who commune with Him. Phat writes:
Why is it foolish to cling to a need for Santa Claus and also foolish to outgrow a need for God?
Only fools think we have outgrown Him or the need for Him. Phat writes:
Empty platitude.
We humans will never attain full potential without help. Phat writes:
The question is how COULD anybody override his authority?
The question is whether God would tolerate people in His house who had a free and rebellious will that overrode His authority. Phat writes:
Why? Unless he's a vicious sadistic bastard. ... the implications of Him controlling everyone are scarier.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
According to made-up bullshit.
The original sheep were the created angels, according to dogma. Phat writes:
God's house, a house belonging to a real God can... not... be... divided. What part of that do you not understand? A house divided against itself will not stand. Edited by ringo, : Punc.tuationAnd our geese will blot out the sun.
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jar Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Phat writes: It is important. The original sheep were the created angels, according to dogma. One of them decided he wanted to have his run of the place with no acknowledgment of the host. He ceased following at that point and became a rogue leader. But that is from Dante's Inferno NOT the Bible.
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
So how does the Bible differ?
Revelation 12:7-9. writes:
So it is clear that Satan was cast out of heaven and 1/3 of the angels went with him. (roughly...dont see a specific reference, but according to dogma) And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer. So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. I suppose you will argue that Satan is portrayed in Job as an instrument of God. I'll go with that also...but it still portrays the tempter as a temperer. Just as iron is tempered into steel, humans are tempered into hopefully better characters. What better character to temper us than one who was a rebel in the first place. Sorta like an ex thief helping the police provide better security. Edited by Phat, : No reason given.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
ringo writes: You are the one suggesting He let everyone in. I'm merely pointing out that not everyone is a follower nor marches to the same drummer. By definition that entails potential division. God's house, a house belonging to a real God can... not... be... divided. What part of that do you not understand? If you invite drunk bikers to your little daughters birthday party, you cant expect everything to go smoothly.
The question is how COULD anybody override his authority? Because He gave them free will. If you gave everyone living at your house free will, they may well eat all of your food, sleep in your bed, and flaunt your ownership. Of course, you being a socialist may mean that you gave your house up to the common good anyway. For the life of me.... Edited by Phat, : No reason given.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Yes, because if He is God and not just Colonel Sanders, he shouldn't have any problems maintaining decorum.
You are the one suggesting He let everyone in. Phat writes:
And God, by definition, entails not having to worry about a few potential tiffs between His guests.
I'm merely pointing out that not everyone is a follower nor marches to the same drummer. By definition that entails potential division. Phat writes:
God can. What part of that do you not understand? If you invite drunk bikers to your little daughters birthday party, you cant expect everything to go smoothly.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
phat writes:
If you invite drunk bikers to your little daughters birthday party, you cant expect everything to go smoothly.ringo writes: He can't without over riding their free will, which is what you never want Him to do to you. (assuming He exists) are you suggesting that He can magically make you get along with everyone while still preserving your right to autonomy? How would He accomplish this? God can. What part of that do you not understand?Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
The idea of "free will" is pretty much nonsense.
He can't without over riding their free will... Phat writes:
Are you suggesting that he can't?
are you suggesting that He can magically make you get along with everyone while still preserving your right to autonomy? Phat writes:
Most parents manage to mediate between warring children without setting some of them up in solid gold playhouses and barbecuing the rest. Why is your God less capable than that? How would He accomplish this?And our geese will blot out the sun.
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jar Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
The Bible as usual differs as being more complex than simply taking one proof text out of context.
Throughout the rest of the Bible Satan is described as the agent og God, doing only what God decides should be done.
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
From Wiki:
quote: To say that Satan is portrayed as an agent of God apparently originated in Judaism.
quote: Why do you dismiss the popular Christian belief, as you usually always do? We are not Jews. Edited by Phat, : No reason given.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
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jar Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Phat writes: Why do you dismiss the popular Christian belief, as you usually always do? We are not Jews. Remember, Jesus was a Jew not a Christian. It was Jews that wrote the books of the Old Testament and Christianity itself originated as a Jewish sect. Christianity is and always has been a revisionist religion that has changed over time. Christianity, particularly the Biblical Inerrancy cult claim that all of the Bible was directed by God. If that is the case then it is reasonable to look at what the Bible actually says and the VAST majority of what is written in both the Old and New Testaments show Satan an an agent of God doing what God directs. Even in the story of the Temptation of Jesus the Satan character acts only as an assayer, a tester. When the apologists take a single passage out of context and ignore the vast amount of contradictory evidence contained in the stories the question should be "Why don't you dismiss them?"
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
why do you consider yourself more Christian than Jewish? Do you see any Jewish beliefs that you have internalized? How are they similar to your Christian beliefs? Is it all one religion to you?
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
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