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Author | Topic: Testing The Christian Apologists | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
jar writes: I too report what other authors have said. You dismiss all of my sources as carny hucksters, even ones with actual credentials! It does not surprise me in that you have gone on record criticizing even Paul of Tarsus. How jar of Texas can do that is clear when one sees that jar markets the idea that the Bible is simply human ideas of various god characters. The reason I don't respond to your arguments is that the conclusion you want me to see is that God is unknowable and that we humans are charged with living like Jesus(only better) rather than following Him. I do not and have not said that I have a clue what God is like and in fact know of no way while I am still living to determine what God is like. But I can report what authors have described as the characteristics of God and so that is what I do. Why is it you have NEVER responded to the evidence I or anyone else has ever posted but just always resort to misrepresentation and avoidance?Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction . "~Thugpreacha You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
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jar Member (Idle past 423 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Believe what is actually written is what is actually written Phat.
It really is that easy. Understand that the Bible does have contradictions and errors and falsehoods and history and folk tales and lessons and each section, each story reflects the ethos of that particular author. Don't believe me. Don't believe Ringo. Don't believe the Apologists. Instead simply acknowledge that what is written in the stories is what is actually written in the stories and what the author of the story wanted to say.
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Don't believe me. I want to believe God Himself.
Don't believe Ringo. Don't believe the Apologists.Instead simply acknowledge that what is written in the stories is what is actually written in the stories and what the author of the story wanted to say. OK, quick question. Why didn't you ever tell me to throw the Bible away? You always said to throw God away. Christianity taught me to trust God and accept Him into my heart (and mind) through the character of Jesus. Had i been a student in your Bible Study I would have been taught that the book has contradictions, which I will give you for the moment. If so, how am I going to find how to accept God when the Bible teacher says to throw Him away? Just what are you teaching? I know you teach that Christianity is about what we do. That much isn't in dispute. What is in dispute is a Bible "teacher" who advocates simply going out, studying all of the religions, and doing good to your fellow human. Does that sum it up? And what about that Bible? Keep or Toss?Oh, and what about God? Should we still throw Him away?Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction . "~Thugpreacha You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
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Tangle Member Posts: 9514 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Phat writes: And yet you and jar can market and support a story about a God Who lies? You're getting muddled, I'm the one that doesn't believe that your god exists or existed. But as far as the story goes, it is what it says so why not read it.
Absolute blasphemy! So stone me to death; isn't that what you should do according to your book?
It does not take a rocket scientist to know that God cannot lie. So you've got a problem haven't you? Best not to think too much about it eh?
But of course, you will come up with some excuse or another of why my quote from the book does not contradict your insistence that the god "character" lied. I don't need an excuse, the lie is either in the text or it isn't. Why not just read the text? Personally I just think it's all laughable - it's just a folk tale, of course it doesn't stand up to real scrutiny. And, btw, you can't use the book to prove what is said in the book.
You basically argue the side of evil, here. Don't be silly, I'm just reading your book like I would any other.
Who am I going to believe? Professionals or armchair skeptics and critics of organized religion? I love the idea of professional god knowers. Like they know anything anybody else can't know. Like it's a big secret only the few are granted. Come on Phat, this is nonsense. Why not just think for yourself?Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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jar Member (Idle past 423 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Phat writes: OK, quick question. Why didn't you ever tell me to throw the Bible away? You always said to throw God away. The Bible (and I mean all of the different Canons), can be shown to exist and verified, and the content of each can be verified. The Bible can be known.
Phat writes: If so, how am I going to find how to accept God when the Bible teacher says to throw Him away? Just what are you teaching? I know you teach that Christianity is about what we do. That much isn't in dispute. What is in dispute is a Bible "teacher" who advocates simply going out, studying all of the religions, and doing good to your fellow human. Does that sum it up? And what about that Bible? Keep or Toss?Oh, and what about God? Should we still throw Him away? Yes Phat, throw all the God(s) and god(s) away. They are all human creations. All we can know is what can be tested and verified; what was included and excluded from the various Canons, what is written in the stories, what is written in any all all the religious tomes and what people actually do. Those things can be known. Everything else is simply fantasy. Edited by jar, : add missing ) Edited by jar, : fix subtitle
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Faith writes:
Yes, we know you believe in a puny God who can only act within strict restraints. God has to act righteously...."If you can keep your head when all about you Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...." -- Rudyard Kipling
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
The story needs no marketing. It says what it says.
And yet you and jar can market and support a story about a God Who lies? Phat writes:
No, not blasphemy. Your own Book might contradict what your apologist idols are telling you but reading the Book as written is not blasphemy by any definition of the word.
Absolute blasphemy! Phat writes:
So Titus disagrees with Genesis. Why do you choose to believe Titus? And why do you choose to believe in a limited god who can't do things?
It does not take a rocket scientist to know that God cannot lie. Phat writes:
On the contrary, I have said flat out that your quote does contradict another quote (not by "my insistence at all). Wake up and smell the coffee. The Bible does have contradictions.
But of course, you will come up with some excuse or another of why my quote from the book does not contradict your insistence that the god "character" lied. Phat writes:
I couldn't care less about descriptions of somebody's belief. If you have an argument, make it.
I find many instances where other Theologians describe the belief that they were taught regarding those passages. Phat writes:
I'm saying that every theologian who refuses to see the contradictions is dishonest.
ts easy to cry that every single Theologian who doesn't see it your way is dishonest. Phat writes:
I stand on the Bible. You stand on apologists.
Clearly neither one of you can do anything but stand on the premise. Phat writes:
There is no "want". I don't care what the Bible says about God any more than I care what Treasure Island says about long John Silver. It says what it says and an honest person has to accept what it says.
I think its because you want the idea that Genesis is simply written by humans and that these humans wanted the god character they invented to lie. Phat writes:
There is no need to trash that idea. It's an untenable position already.
You have attempted to trash the idea that God exists outside of the book characters and portrayals. Phat writes:
On the contrary, you're the one who is trying to spread lies about the Bible.
You basically argue the side of evil, here. Phat writes:
We're talking about a character in a book here. If there is a god outside the book, that's a separate issue.
You reduce the character of God to human creation... Phat writes:
I accuse Christians of denying the message of the book, not just ignoring it.
... accusing Christians themselves of ignoring the message of the book--- Phat writes:
Who should you believe? The guy on the infomercial who is trying to sell you a product (i.e. the professional who makes his living by selling you stuff)? Or the consumer reports who warn you that the product will burst into flames? Who am I going to believe? Professionals or armchair skeptics and critics of organized religion?"If you can keep your head when all about you Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...." -- Rudyard Kipling
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
ringo writes: I wouldn't say it is any better. I would say that it is at least as good. My belief is that God is known initially through a spiritual epiphany, which may have at one time happened to you before you quenched the fire through your stronger belief in science and evidence and your observation that Christians around you had nothing special going on that unbelievers did not have. what makes you think you know more about God?" Why do you know more than the ancient goat-herders who wrote about God lying? Why is your perspective, cluttered as it is by books and apologetics, better than theirs? The goat herders had a lot of quiet time to think.
Ancient History Encyclopedia writes: Thus, the cultural ideas about God in general likely led to the writing that God lied to A&E. My "religionism" was partly cultural and partly transcendent. The older I get, however, the more that I realize that my transcendent experience was an awakening more than it was a transformation. It is beginning to look as if you and jar are correct in that what I do leads to further evidence of a transformative personality and outlook. I wished that God would have totally changed and transformed me, but evidently He expects some work out of me! Religion (from the Latin Religio, meaning 'restraint,' or Relegere, according to Cicero, meaning 'to repeat, to read again,' or, most likely, Religionem, 'to show respect for what is sacred') is an organized system of beliefs and practices revolving around, or leading to, a transcendent spiritual experience. There is no culture recorded in human history which has not practiced some form of religion. In ancient times, religion was indistinguishable from what is known as 'mythology' in the present day and consisted of regular rituals based on a belief in higher supernatural entities who created and continued to maintain the world and surrounding cosmos. These entities were anthropomorphic and behaved in ways that mirrored the values of the culture closely (as in Egypt) or sometimes engaged in acts antithetical to those values (as one sees with the gods of Greece).As for our goat herders, they worked a lot! I likely couldn't even handle a day full of what they did. They, like I, encountered certain problems and challenges for which even hard work couldn't overcome, so they, as I, turned to the God of their understanding. I can speculate that they had more challenges and obstacles in life than I do, so perhaps their faith was stronger than mine. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction . "~Thugpreacha You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
You did say it. In Message 514, I asked, "So you're wiser than the people who wrote the Book?" and in Message 516 you replied, "In some ways yes. I know more about reality than they do." And presumably, you include God as part of reality.
ringo writes:
I wouldn't say it is any better. Why is your perspective, cluttered as it is by books and apologetics, better than theirs? Phat writes:
And the cultural ideas about God in the past two thousand years have evolved to what you believe. What's the difference? Thus, the cultural ideas about God in general likely led to the writing that God lied to A&E."If you can keep your head when all about you Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...." -- Rudyard Kipling
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
And the cultural ideas about God in the past two thousand years have evolved to what you believe. What's the difference? The transcendent experience. I had one. That much I know. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction . "~Thugpreacha You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
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Tangle Member Posts: 9514 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Phat writes: The transcendent experience.[ Yup, that's ALWAYS IT, all the rest is packing. Jesus spoke to you so all the rest is irrelevant detail. In other words it's all about you.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
HOW do you know? You can never explain how you can tell the difference between a "transcendent experience" and a bad burrito. Until you can explain it, you don't know any such thing. The transcendent experience. I had one. That much I know."If you can keep your head when all about you Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...." -- Rudyard Kipling
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
ringo writes: A "bad burrito", more commonly known as food poisoning, is a biological reaction to toxic chemicals being accidentally ingested. The feelings can range anywhere from nausea to brief paranoia or even euphoric feelings, which are a temporary response to the toxins, which eventually are fought off and destroyed by the body. You can never explain how you can tell the difference between a "transcendent experience" and a bad burrito. Until you can explain it, you don't know any such thing. Full recovery usually happens in 1-5 days or in rare occasions through professional medical care. What I experienced was initially a bit of detachment and serenity, which can happen after any mind altering experience. It was unique enough that I, a former recreational drug user, could differentiate it from any reaction to any mind altering substance i had ever done. Notably, the altering of my perspective and mental state was felt even more profoundly 24-60 hours later. I literally felt almost as one feels when they fall in love. the concept of God, which had never been internalized, was at that time perceived on a personal familial level. God became forever alive that day. This awareness radiated out from me and many whom I knew at the time commented on how different I was. As the day faded from short term memory, it grew in long term awareness. I actually wanted to go to church---not for the people there so much---I still barely knew them, but because I felt as if God---or something alien and powerful---was actually alive and living inside of me. What more recollection and/or descriptions of my experience do you require? I have since asked others to explain how they knew they had gotten saved.Many profess belief or membership in the club, but if you ask them where God is at this very moment, you will usually get similar answers: "Everywhere"...or "In Heaven" or even "right here beside me". The main difference that I noted came from those who were warm, loving, on fire for jesus, and hungry for more was that when you asked them where God was right now, they would as a group almost exclaim the same thing: "He is in my heart". Or He is in me. That's a notable difference in common that I have found through informal inquiry. Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction . "~Thugpreacha You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
tangle writes: No, not at all. If anything, I became much more empathetic of other people. It was never just about me. Perhaps at times I felt as if it was about Jesus, for He had become as real to me as if He were my own Grandfather or treasured family friend. I have noted that now, years and years later (26 years to be exact) I have found that the feeling has faded yet is instantly accessible through prayer and voluntary cheerful good works. jar is right in that instance. Works prove salvation and indwelling, though many do good works who have neither of those attributes. Jesus spoke to you so all the rest is irrelevant detail. In other words it's all about you.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction . "~Thugpreacha You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
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Tangle Member Posts: 9514 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Phat writes: No, not at all. If anything, I became much more empathetic of other people. It was never just about me. Of course it's about you - it happened to you. Jesus spoke to YOU.
Perhaps at times I felt as if it was about Jesus, for He had become as real to me as if He were my own Grandfather or treasured family friend. I have noted that now, years and years later (26 years to be exact) I have found that the feeling has faded yet is instantly accessible through prayer and voluntary cheerful good works. jar is right in that instance. Works prove salvation and indwelling, though many do good works who have neither of those attributes. It's a common experience across all religions and it's not confined to religion. All sorts of cults create these experiences. How do you explain Mohammed talking to people? It's got nothing to do with Jesus or Christianity it's a brain state. A delusion. It feels real but of course it isn't. Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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