Israel/Lebanon/Gaza conflict (continuation thread)

Well, there must be a way. Remember according to Buz, Isreal has never done anything wrong, and never will. So knowing that it can't ever be Isreal's fault you simply have to look elsewhere for the blame.Now isn't that easy?lfen

Well, judging from that report the Isrealis did a lot. They missed the first time and got a call. They kept trying and got closer but still the calls kept coming in and they just kept trying to bomb UN observers until finally they managed to achieve their premeditated murder. They even lied to the UN to keep them there so they could keep attempting to kill them! Utterly disgusting and reprehensible!Nobody will do anything about it. This is a moral outrage but nothing new.Remember when they attacked the USS Liberty that was monitoring during the 1967 War? They are doing the same thing. The chilling thing is that neither the UN nor the US will do anything. This was premeditated murder. They lied to the UN and kept bombing until they killed them which was their intent all along, just like with the Liberty. There should be a war crimes charge brought against the Isreal Government and military for this. But there won't be.lfen

Faith,Oh, Israel had good reason. They didn't want the UN observing what they were doing so they killed them, premediated murder. Much like they didn't want the US to know all they were upto in the 1967 War so they attacked a US Naval ship to cripple its antennae and killed a lot of service men. Then, mission accomplished, they said it was a mistake.Robert McNamara ordered a cover up. But if you review the attack Isreal knew it was a US Navy ship and they didn't cease their attack until it was incapable of surveilance.http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/ussliberty.html
http://www.washington-report.org/backissues/0693/9306019.htmThe tragedy was the UN observers kept radioing the Israelis letting them know that they had missed so that the Israels could continue their murder attempts until they succeeded and it took awhile. They kept firing until they killed them. Clearly that was their callous
intent. They should be charged with deliberate murder of those canadians. Murder in cold blood planned out. And they made attempt after attempt until they succeeded. Disgusting.But unlike the US they won't even bother to put all the blame on a pregnant noncom. They'll just say sorry, but the next time they want to do something with out third party observation they'll murder who they damn well please in cold blood, cause nobody is going to do anything of consequence. They've gotten away with it and will continue to. The US will face down the line the consequences of the ill treatment of Iraqi's, but Bush and his buddies got their money out of the war and they don't care, and as long as Americans have fast food and televsion they won't care either.lfenEdited by lfen, : miscliced before I had finished cleaning up typos

Absolutely, this has been obvious for a long time. This is how true believers maintain their preconceived beliefs. Simply deny anything that contradicts how they want things to be.The thing is that denial can use the merest shred of doubt and in desperation fall back on solipism so that delusions of a true believer are extrememly resistant to reality checking. Your last paragraph was a challenge to parse but once I got it I think this is a good point though it took awhile for me to figure out the referents for "they" and "same operations" because hezbollah was the subject of the sentence and I thought "they" referred to the subject, then realized you were referring to the Israeli's. I'm mentioning this in case anyone else reading your point is having the same trouble parsing it as I did. It's a very good point.lfen

Did you read my earlier links on the attack on the USS Liberty? There is precedence for this.Many people want to believe in authority. To question authority makes them feel insecure. When the prison abuses in Iraq came to light I recognized that this situation would be dealt with in predictable pattern. The administration and brass would find a fall guy to blame it on while covering their own backsides. The military has a long career of officers looking for the lowest ranked enlisted person to blame and sacrifice as they did with that poor pregnant non com. It's now coming to light what I gut level recognized from the beginning because I know that system.Same thing is happening here. Isreal got away with attacking an unarmed US Navy surveilance ship and killing Americans. It's been years (decades?)since I read the book on it but they had their secrets that they wanted to keep even from the US.Why did the UN keep radioing Isreal and recieving assurances only for the shelling to resume? What does that tell you? It tells me Isreal found the information useful i.e. they hadn't hit their target and so try try again. It's pragmatic and cynical on their part. And it's allowed by the way the world works at present, but it's wrong and they need to be called on it.Bear in mind that Robert McNamara, Secretary of Defense ordered the cover up for Isreal in the USS Liberty attack.I'm not taking Hezbollah's side in this. I'm taking the Canadian's side.lfen

I'm on dial up. I'm listening to it right now. I hear a few words like, "we recognise Isreal"... then a long pause of 5 to 6 sec. and then I get 4 more words.If there was a transcript I'd read it. But it's too hard to try to listen to something 4 words at a time and wait 5 seconds for the next 4 words. Sometimes I'll download an audio or video clip and that way I can play it off my hard drive but dial up has never worked for me with streaming.From the brief blurb on the webpage you linked it appeared he was saying he had reports that Hezbollah fighters were operating very close to the observers position in order to shield themselves. How does that justify artillery fire knowing you are endangering the UN observers? There MIGHT be another explanation. But in saying "there HAS to be" you are revealing your preconceptions. Isreal attacked the US. And they ignored the messages in that case also until they had crippled the surveilance capacity of the ship by shooting all its antennae off and only then did they break off the attack. They have demonstrated they are capable of it.lfenEdited by lfen, : the old it's instead of its quandry, fixed it.

Okay, your advice on the audio clip worked and I listened to the interview.I'll wait for more evidence. It does sound like Hezbollah was either attempting to use the UN post as a shield or to draw fire on it for propaganda or both. That doesn't explain why Isreal kept shelling so close to the position or why they hit it. I'll concede that perhaps Isreal was not targeting the UN but was attempting to target nearby Hezbollah forces but it sounds to me like they were being very reckless and I don't know if the provocation given the proximity to the observers was warranted.I still have a bitter taste from the attack on the USS Liberty and the way it was handled by our government. And I remain skeptical about Israeli honesty and motivations given that shameful episode.lfen

I don't have time this morning to check those links so will get back to you later on that. I have read defenses of Isreal but felt they were rather vague and I was obviously convinced by the case made by the prosecution, so to speak. But I'll write no more until I get time to read your links.lfen

Well, as there are still a lot of documents that remain classified it appears all the evidence is not in. The survivors of the attack believe that the Israeli's knew it was an American ship. I side with their evaluation. I think the prosecution has the stronger case. But there is no final proof either way at this point and until and if it's declassified we can't know if the classified material would really help or not.I'll leave this at I'm suspicious but can't prove my suspicions regarding both the attack on the USS Liberty and the UN observatin post.So I'll say Isreal is innocent until proven guilty but I still strongly suspect guilt would we have access to all the information which unfortunately we don't and probably never will. So I think they probably got away with it. It happens and during wartime it happens a lot.lfen

That is a very strong point. The motive is not clear and disputed, but there might have been one. Then again I have decided to be open to it being an accident but the suspicions of the crew and other US government folks has me wondering what the full story is.lfen