The beginning of the jihad in Europe?

Over and over you equate Christian "fundies" with islamists, then deny it. (You also speak of jewish fundamentalists, who pretty much don't exist. Even that small minority of jews called ultra orthodox rarely believe the bible is the exact word of G-d, and seldom argue against evolution.)
Examples:
* "They all believe in materialism and a devoted fanaticism to some ancient time. Its ironic that Islam gets singled out for wanting to recreate a 7th century empire, when every day Xians and Jews openly proclaim and work to recreate a 3000 year dead kingdom of Israel, as well as return to pre 7th century science and theology."
* And, in response to my point that Christians convert peacefully: "Peacefully? How is force of arms of a nation peaceful? Legal dictations for others is not peaceful. The Xians have loaded the Bible with explanations of that fact... when they are not in charge of course!"
(Apparently you can't distinguish between a secular decision made by a secular democracy, supported by both political parties, and an evangelical movement. BTW, if you're readying for the "Bush lied us into war" refrain as some kind of irrational evidence that "fundies" wanted to attack iraq for religious reasons, I suggest you read Bush's bill before Congress explaining the need for war, and for which both parties voted.)That you deny that israel is a modern liberal democracy is to be absurd and obtuse.Since you will disagree, and since there will not be even a shred of intersection in our perspectives, we are, undoubtedly, at yet another impasse. So, to you the last word.

Again, my point about civility. However, if you were being hunouress and i missed that, i apologize.

BTW, with respect to this:" Despite your description to make it sound like no one lived there, in fact there were many millions of Arabs and only a small portion of Jews. The Jews were not creating wealth which brought in the Arabs."I never said no one lived there, in the land that is now Israel. But the population was sparse and nomadic."Mark Twain, who visited Palestine in 1867, described it as:“ ...[a] desolate country whose soil is rich enough, but is given over wholly to weeds-a silent mournful expanse....A desolation is here that not even imagination can grace with the pomp of life and action....We never saw a human being on the whole route....There was hardly a tree or a shrub anywhere. Even the olive and the cactus, those fast friends of the worthless soil, had almost deserted the country.”
Source: Mark Twain, The Innocents Abroad. London: 1881 (New American Library, 1997)."In fact, there are many varying population counts. What appears to be approximately right is that there were 400,000 Arabs in the land that is now isreal, the territories and, mainly, Jordan - which is much bigger than Israel. Many were nomads and not permanently settled. There were about 25,000 Jews, almost all of whom were in Israel, mainly in jerusalem, which had a majority Jewish population.After the fall of the ottomans, Arabs got over 99.5% of the land and 22 states. Palestinians are one and the same as Syrians, Jordanians and lebanese. In other words, they got 3 states. Some others are egyptians, as was Arafat himself.With the creation of Israel, 700,000 Jews were evicted from all Arab states - despite that Jews had lived in many of them long before Arabs did. To this day it is illegal for jews to live in an Arab state, including Gaza. Meanwhile, Arabs continued then as now to live in the one Jewish state.But i guess you figure there should have been 23 Arab states and not even a sliver of a state for the jews, despite being there thousands of years before the arabs.

http://frontpagemagazine.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=...

FRANCE'S TICKING TIME BOMB
by Amir Taheri
Arab News
November 5, 2005"It is now clear that a good portion of France's Muslims not only refuse to assimilate into "the superior French culture" but firmly believe that Islam offers the highest forms of life."http://www.benadorassociates.com/article/18823

If you read all my links, to writers both Muslim and non Muslim, you will find a theme: the riots are both because of social ills and islamic faith and culture. The general concensus is that Muslims resist assimilation. They identify more with their faith and Islamic civilization than the western one to which they come. The foregoing, plus archaic aspects to islamic culture - such the the serious repression of women - create the social ills in response to which, ironically, they then riot.

The belief that riots amongst Blacks in the US equate to those of Muslims in france constitutes a false analogy. Blacks came to the US as slaves. Children were raped and separated from their parents, thereby creating intergenerational emotional/psychological pathologies. even after slavery ended, legisalted discrimination continued.french Muslims came to a state with no legal discrimination, with families intact, where many ethnic immigrants had come and done well. They had state support by way of social programs and subsidized housing. They had access to the same education, most of it free, as all others. In short, they faced none of the institutional and historical discrimination and horrific abuse suffered by American Blacks.

Jar, it is historical fact that the arabs arrived in what is Israel and the surrounding nations in the 7th century. There were other peoples, aside from jews, who preceded them, who had died out by then. Others, like the egyptians, were also conquered by the arabs and forcibly converted.

jar, don't you think it terribly impolite to use your BS meter, and then audacious to demand civility from others? Seems to me that one surrenders any rational claims to moral judgment when so behaving.================================================================="During the seventh century (A.D. 600's), Muslim Arab armies moved north from Arabia to conquer most of the Middle East, including Palestine. Jerusalem was conquered about 638 by the Caliph Umar (Omar) who gave his protection to its inhabitants."
http://www.mideastweb.org/briefhistory.htm======================================================="The Arab Middle EastAs a result of the unifying effects of Roman and Byzantine rule, there was no real distinction between what is now Europe and what is now the Middle East until the 7th century AD. Anatolia, Syria, Palestine and Egypt were all Christian and Greek speaking, united culturally and politically with the Greco-Roman world under the rule of Constantinople, while Mesopotamia (modern Iraq) formed a buffer zone between the Byzantine and Persian Empires.The decisive event in the creation of the Middle East as a distinct cultural region was the rise of Islam in the Arabian Peninsula. In 634 the followers of Muhammad set out from Medina. They occupied Palestine in 636, Mesopotamia in 637, Syria and Egypt in 640 and Persia in 642. The Byzantines succeeded in preventing the Arabs from seizing Anatolia, which remained Christian until the arrival of the Turks 400 years later. The majority of the population in the areas conquered by the Arabs converted to Islam within two generations, creating a permanent cultural frontier between Europe and the Muslim world."History of the Middle East - Wikipedia==========================================================You can find elaborate histories detailing all the various peoples who have populated the region since recorded history. Very few survive today, the Jews being one.

I don't get your point. The jews are the last surviving indigenous people from the area. They were there thousands of years before the arabs invaded. They have had a continuous presence there for 3,700 years. Thye have had to settle for far less than originally promised by the league of Nations and the UN, far less than what was biblical Israel. Meanwhile, Arabs who are relatively johnny-come-lateles, have 22 states, and will have a 23rd on the territories whenever they decide to agree to a land for peace deal. Palistinian Arabs already have 3 states, Jordan, lebanon and Syria, and will have a 4th whenever they accept Israel's outstanding land for peace offer.The Jews claim to israel is so profound and historically rooted that there it is virtually a non sequitor to speak of them as having a "special claim."

You're thinking of Israel as a single piece of land on which there lived Arabs and less Jews. In fact, there was one gigantic land mass without states, on which lived a vast majority of arabs and more jews than you realize - remember, Arabs evicted 700,000 Jews after israel was formed. That gigantic land mass was divided into 23 Arab states, and one, extremely tiny jewish state. However, whereas the jews invited non jews to stay and build a state, the arab states not only evicted all Jews, but forbade Jews then, as they do still, to live amongst them. So who is racist?And what about the US? Why should you not leave and hand your home over to natives? You surely have not nearly as much claim to the land as do jews to israel.One more thought, from MLK""Anti-Zionism = Anti-Semitism"
- Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.
". . . You declare, my friend, that you do not hate the Jews, you are merely 'anti-Zionist.' And I say, let the truth ring forth from the high mountain tops, let it echo through the valleys of God's green earth: When people criticize Zionism, they mean Jews--this is God's own truth."Antisemitism, the hatred of the Jewish people, has been and remains a blot on the soul of mankind. In this we are in full agreement. So know also this: anti-Zionist is inherently antisemitic, and ever will be so."Why is this? You know that Zionism is nothing less than the dream and ideal of the Jewish people returning to live in their own land. The Jewish people, the Scriptures tell us, once enjoyed a flourishing Commonwealth in the Holy Land. From this they were expelled by the Roman tyrant, the same Romans who cruelly murdered Our Lord. Driven from their homeland, their nation in ashes, forced to wander the globe, the Jewish people time and again suffered the lash of whichever tyrant happened to rule over them."The Negro people, my friend, know what it is to suffer the torment of tyranny under rulers not of our choosing. Our brothers in Africa have begged, pleaded, requested--DEMANDED the recognition and realization of our inborn right to live in peace under our own sovereignty in our own country."How easy it should be, for anyone who holds dear this inalienable right of all mankind, to understand and support the right of the Jewish People to live in their ancient Land of Israel. All men of good will exult in the fulfilment of God's promise, that his People should return in joy to rebuild their plundered land.This is Zionism, nothing more, nothing less."And what is anti-Zionist? It is the denial to the Jewish people of a fundamental right that we justly claim for the people of Africa and freely accord all other nations of the Globe. It is discrimination against Jews, my friend, because they are Jews. In short, it is antisemitism."The antisemite rejoices at any opportunity to vent his malice. The times have made it unpopular, in the West, to proclaim openly a hatred of the Jews. This being the case, the antisemite must constantly seek new forms and forums for his poison. How he must revel in the new masquerade! He does not hate the Jews, he is just 'anti-Zionist'!"My friend, I do not accuse you of deliberate antisemitism. I know you feel, as I do, a deep love of truth and justice and a revulsion for racism, prejudice, and discrimination. But I know you have been misled--as others have been--into thinking you can be 'anti-Zionist' and yet remain true to these heartfelt principles that you and I share.Let my words echo in the depths of your soul: When people criticize Zionism, they mean Jews--make no mistake about it."From M.L. King Jr., "Letter to an Anti-Zionist Friend," Saturday Review_XLVII (Aug. 1967), p. 76.
Reprinted in M.L. King Jr., "This I Believe: Selections from the Writings of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr."

"That would be a start. Once he realizes that his obsessive-compulsive behaviour is out of control, he may then seek some kind of treatment for it. I suspect, though, that he is still in denial."Again, you lack civility. Were i to respond in kind you would be quick to see me as engendering conflict.The truth is this: The islamic world is at civil war with itself, as it has been almost from its birth. One side is amenable to democracy and peace. The other is fascist and imperialist. It is gunning not only for other Muslims, but us too. To fail to understand this, and its epochal implications, is to be in denial. these people control Iran and Sudan. They had Afghanistan. They are powerful 5th columnists in nulcear pakistan - from where they disseminated nuclear weapons tech to North Korea, Libya, iran and elsewhere. Imagine them having an empire? They were on the way to that before being set back by wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. Imagine yourself, as a modern woman, being forced to live as Afghani women did under these people, virtual slaves. They fully intend for you to be one of amny wives of your husband, to be a prisoner to your homes, a slave to your husband and sons, and to be imprisoned within a burhka. They are more powerful than you want to believe. They are behind genocide in africa, war against hindus in India, against Bhuddists in tailand, against christians in many antions, and peacefyul muslims all over the Islamic world. In fact, that is why they just attacked Jordan, a nation run by a moderate islamic monarchy.

"Why shouldn't I read the paper produced by Feith who helped develop the strategy for Bush, and states specifically that it is for securing Israel? And that this was admittedly part of Xian and Jewish conservative strategies?"So you're given to nutbar conspiracy stories. No wonder why i find it impossible to discern rational interesection points on which to engage.

Very true. And when was the last time Germany demanded to get abck land it lost in WW 11? Or that germans eviceted from those lands be given a right of return?In any event, israel has over and over returned land won in defensiove wars. did you know that this is the 3rd time Israel has returned Gaza? I'm sure you know Israel returned the sinai to Egypt in a land for peace deal. The only land Israel won't return are the suburbs of Jerusalem. Everything else is the Arabs for the asking, if they'll only give Israel peace.

Almost for everything i have said I have provided evidence, and much of it from prominent Muslim writers. Are they bigoted too? Why do you feel injured when information that contradicts your assumptions is offered? Doesn't truth matter more? And then there's the words of Islamists, which I have presented. Interesting that I am bigoted for presenting their bigotry. That's called shooting the messenger.And, needless to say Arab is not synonomous with muslim. Where have i ever said otherwise?