Insect diversity falsifies the worldwide flood.

they do change very fast, do you know why? because they use radiation on them, and change the genes directly, its forced mutation to test how genes change, this has little to do with evolution outside a labi think its faulty reasoning to use this as an exaple, and you have no evidence that there was more "potential" for change back then, if there was there would be something to show this so it comes down not to factual truth with evidence, but does it fit the bible, why bother faith? why do you need to "proove" the bible true? its not a science book, its a religious text, it doens't really sound like your faith lies with god, but more with a three thousand year-old book that reflects the beliefs of the hebrews.
if you trusted god, you would agree that the earth which he created shows the book wrong

But they're still fruit flies. (Jeepers creepers, I am beginning to sound like a creationist!) What you are suggesting is that just short of a million insect species - and that's only the species we know, there might be many more we have not discovered yet - have evolved from a small base of insects in about 4000 years.You are asking if anybody has done some calculations on this. Well, it turns out the answer is yes. In this study you can see that speciation rates are of the order of less than one to a few species per million years.Even if we assume that the small base on the Ark was as large as half of all insect species extant now, then that would still mean a speciation rate of about 125 species per year. That's a far cry from what scientific studies like the one I mentioned are telling us. How so? What's your basis for this assertion? Only if the Bible is true. Which it can't be, because it was only created yesterday. (Or rather, the day before yesterday. How time flies when you're having fun...)But joking aside, if that's your answer, then my question becomes: why should we choose the Bible as the touch stone for our theories, and not ancient Egyptian, Chinese, or Indian creation myths, for example? Or other "holy" texts of non-Christian religions still in sway?Edited by Parasomnium, : Being more precise about the order of magnitude of speciation rates.Edited by Parasomnium, : Also being more precise about the creation date of the Bible.

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"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science." - Charles Darwin.

Hi again, Faith. Not specifically for insects, but for all lifeforms, the answer is on the order of 3825 speciation events per year since the flood. That, of course, translates to nearly ten new species per day simply to get the minimum ~10,000,000 species alive today. (The assumptions are based on the creationist book, "Noah's Ark: A Feasibility Study", which claimed approximately 8500 species on the ark itself.) Hyper-evolution indeed.

perhaps the greatest falsification of the flood.imagine, a creationist, or YEC more specifically, would have to support evolution in order to defend something that is supposed to discount evolution as false.

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All a man's knowledge comes from his experiences

QUOTE
1) is "estimated" to be 4,767 years old, which is only 267 years before the estimated time of the flood, that too being an estimate.So you adjust your estimate to suit your argument
every christian iv herd talking about the flood says
it happened 3000 yrs ago.
Iv never heard anybody say the flood happened 4500yrs ago
why don't you produce a source on that one and enlighten me please.
I took the low estimation on the Bristle cone pine age
there are other higher estimates
but even so it happened before the flood.QUOTE
2) The Bible doesn't say all plant life died. All the terms apply to animal life. Possibly some plant life survivedOk Faith let me show were it does say that god destroyed every liveing thing.
21
And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man:Because of the word all in this underlined statment
plants would be included.
22
All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died.In the underlined statment "every living substance" would incluld plants
because plants are a LIVEING SUBSTANCE.
23
and every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark.Also
This underlined statment back the other statment up.
23
and every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and
Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the arkWhy is you christains are allways trying to twist what the bible says
to suit your arguments in a dicussion.The bible makes it clear that god's intentions were to destroy everthing except noah and the ark.
What do you think god is going to let some evil littlething slip though his fingers and escape his rath?
Oh come on now PLEASE!!!!!
have a nice day

Yep. Not only that, but the figures assume such hyperevolution has/is occurring right up to the present. Now, if we assume that written historical records (say from early Greek or even Roman times) would have at least noticed new species popping into existence on a daily basis - even if we're just talking "microevolution within a kind" (whatever the hell that is), then the actual rate jumps to almost 7000 per year, or 20 species a day until the hypermacroevolutionary mechanism came to a halt. Now THAT'S amazing...

well, we do find new species all the time, don't we?

God rested on the seventh day, if we are not ignorant that one day is a thousand years to God and he rested on the seventh day before he caused the world flood. *If* God caused the flood after his seventh God day this would mean Adam was created in the year 6556 year of the 6th God day of creation. This would mean the flood happened around the 8000 years from the creation of the earth. My resource article talks about 6 days meaning 6,000 years however the 6th day = 6,000 - 7,000 years because the first creation day would be 1 to 1000 years. If the 7,000 year clock started aproximately the 6556 year into the creation week that being the creation date of mankind then if were nearing the end of the seventh thousand year since the creation of mankind then the flood happened approximately 5,509 years ago. 6556 + 7,000 =13,556 - 1491 years from adam to Noah Flood = 12,065 years - 6556 = flood happening approximately 5,509 years ago.**********and every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark.*********This is the fossil record all that remained upon the surface of the ground was destroyed. It didn't say all living substances were all destroyed, just the living substances upon the surface of the earth. The olive branch like the fish didn't remain upon the surface of the earth thus exempt from total destruction yet of all the people on the earth it does say only Noah remained alive and they that were with him in the ark. Creationists mention trees float above the surface of the earth, insects and their larvas would of survived on things that float explaining the great diversity of insects.*******resource articleError 404 - Not FoundThe Epistle of Barnabas,written about 200 A.D., actually expounded on the concept of the 7000- year plan of Go,stating that the “end” would occur at the point ogf 6000 years from the creation of mankind.States this ancient document of the early church period:
“of the sabbath He speaketh in the beginning of the creation; `And God made the works of his hands in six days and He ended on the seventh day,and rested on it,and He hallowed it.`Give heed,children,what this meaneth,`He ended in six days` He meaneth this,that IN SIX THOUSAND YEARS THE LORD SHALL BRING ALL THINGS TO AND END,for the day with Him signifieth a thousand years;and this He himself beareth me witness,saying,`behold,the day of the Lord shall be as a THOUSAND YEARS.`
Therefore,children,in six days,that is IN SIX THOUSAND YEARS,EVERYTHING SHALL COME TO AN END`.And He rested on the seventh day`. This he meaneth; when His Son shall come,and shall abolish the time of the Lawless One,and shall judge the ungodly,and shall change the sun and the moon and the stars,then shall He truly rest on the seventh day”.(Epistles of Barnabus,chap.15 The Apostolic Fathers,pp.151-152)

Not all insects have a larval stage. Even the ones that do would not have survived the 180 days of the flood, for the most part.Moreover, the Bible says that the Flood caused the death of all life "that has the breath of life." Insects, like all terrestrial animals, aspirate. Thus, they have the breath of life (though their spiricles, roughly equivalent to nostrils.) If we're nearing the end of the "seventh thousand year since the creation of mankind" then the Bible records as past history things that wouldn't happen for thousands of years.Can you explain this discrepancy? If Genesis contains prophecy, why isn't it clearly deliniated as such, like it is for the other prophecies that the Bible offers?

You can easily find posts here using Search with the term "4500 years."I found references to my own posts on the 4500 year period since the Flood, which nobody has ever challenged before you: The first one alludes to the Flood in the reference to the formation of the geologic column which creationists (at least YECs) believe was the work of the Flood:http://EvC Forum: Splintering our Education System based on FAITH -->EvC Forum: Splintering our Education System based on FAITHhttp://EvC Forum: Have any Biblical literalists been to the American Southwest? -->EvC Forum: Have any Biblical literalists been to the American Southwest?http://EvC Forum: Attention Faith: Geological data and the Flood -->EvC Forum: Attention Faith: Geological data and the Flood http://EvC Forum: YEC Age of Earth question (false appearance of age?) -->EvC Forum: YEC Age of Earth question (false appearance of age?)http://EvC Forum: Hydrologic Evidence for an Old Earth -->EvC Forum: Hydrologic Evidence for an Old EarthThe Biblical time table is roughly:Creation 6000 years ago. This and other dates are established by genealogies and other time markers in the text.Flood roughly 4500 years ago. Count the years of the generations between Adam and Noah in Genesis 5.1900 BC or almost 4000 years ago. The calling of Abraham by God. Well before the time you give for the Flood.1500-1400 BC roughly, or almost 3500 years ago, the Exodus from Egypt led by Moses. Still before the time period you give for the Flood.1000 BC or 3000 years ago, the time you give for the FLood, biblically is the time of David the King of Israel.I really don't know about plants. Some may have been saved on the ark too, certainly many seeds. "Flesh" and "creeping things" and "breath in nostrils" do not describe plants. I'm not sure about "substance" since the other description so explicitly leaves out plants. Certainly plants died too by the bazillions but that doesn't mean that some didn't survive. The bazillions of fossils of sea life show that the same happened to them, but yet some obviously survived to replenish the oceans, and not on the ark. Since it's a matter of "estimates" I wouldn't be so sure. I thought the usual claim was that the age of trees was a hard and fast number, not an "estimate." Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Except jazzns, nested heirarchies without ever seeing the common ancestor in living biota or the fossil record is not evidence for ToE. Quite simply, the fossil record and living biota are the hard evidence and since they totally contradict ToE, ToE must be false.

For you guys to resort to written records is a joke. Written records denote dinosaurs being observed in Roman and other times, even a few hundred years ago. All we hear today are the exagerrated stories of dragons, but going back to actual reports, some quite credible, the descriptions often fit dinosaurs.

what???are the written records you referring to the noah's ark feasability study? or the bible?where are those reports, I want to read them?

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All a man's knowledge comes from his experiences

why would you expect to see the common ancestor(s) living today? they might be, a very small chance that they might be. as to the fossil record--you ever try to fossilize bacteria? the oldest fossils we have are what they left behind, the stromatolites (possibly mispelled).so if the ToE is actually false, then what alternative is their?
afterall, I don't think you can say that the nested hierarchy is evidence of design or creation, because then you would have to know god's purpose (or the designer's) for making it appear that way. and god forbid we know his purpose. at least the ToE can predict such a nested hierarchy.

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All a man's knowledge comes from his experiences

The above *does* contain a misspelling. The Google toolbar has a spellchecker.--Percy