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Author | Topic: Pat Robertson on natural disasters | |||||||||||||||||||||||
nator Member (Idle past 2160 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: I elieve that Roman Catholics are the single largest Christian denomination in the US, and you know thay don't pay no nevermind to Pat. Crash, Ithink that you are being unreasonable. Just as many members of the NRA do not support it's minority radical leadership and crazy Charlton Heston, many Protestant Christians do not support Robertson.
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nator Member (Idle past 2160 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: I do actually think that the "normal majority" of Christians have been far too complicit in letting Pat Robertson have free reign and his lofty platform. Catholics, for example, were rightly outraged when they found out that the Church leadership had had a longstanding protection and relocation program for pedophile priests. They held the church's feet to the fire for a long time and even got Rome to respond. Shouldn't Protestants be doing the same thing with Robertson?
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nator Member (Idle past 2160 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
Shouldn't Protestants be doing the same thing with Robertson? quote: Are you telling me that various Protestant denominations do not generally agree on their rejection of Robertson's cooption of their voice? This message has been edited by schrafinator, 10-20-2005 02:58 PM
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nator Member (Idle past 2160 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Well, then it seems to me that if there is confusion among people if all of the various Protestant Christian groups want or do not want Robertson speaking for them, then they only have themselves to blame.
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nator Member (Idle past 2160 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: It is quite well known that there is a sizable, very vocal and active segment of the American people who do not agree with Bush and are against much of what he does. Besides, he actually IS supposed to represent all of us. That's what we have elections for. I think the issue under discussion is that all of the various Protestant groups that do not agree with Robertson are not vocal and not active in opposing Robertson, who claims to represent the Christian voice in America but was never chosen by anyone other than him.
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nator Member (Idle past 2160 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: The same way the abolitionists did, and the same way the anti-child labor people did, and the same way the civil rights workers did in the 60's.
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nator Member (Idle past 2160 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: But if Robertson began claiming that he represented the views of all Satanist cult members, and that there were millions of Satanist cult members all across the country, comprising many different sub-groups, and many of them did not agree with the way Robertson promoted Satanism, yet those people did nothing to oppose his misrepresentations, then it would be reasonable for people to assume that all or many of the Satanic cult members were OK with what Robertson was saying about the views of all Satanic cults.
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nator Member (Idle past 2160 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: I think it's a little more than that. It's not just that Robertson is a "flake". He's a "flake" who is is clearly also a bigot, sexist, homophobe, and hate-monger, with a very prominent international audience, the ear of the President of the United States, and who constantly takes it upon himself to speak for all Christians. He's not just some local crazy preacher whom most people ignore. And I don't get the impression that Robertson (or Fallwell or Dobson) are "widely recognized" as flakes. All of them routinely appear on mainstram national news broadcasts to present the "Christian" viewpoint on various issues. This message has been edited by schrafinator, 10-22-2005 10:40 AM
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nator Member (Idle past 2160 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Oh, for goodness sake. This is not how most Americans view CNN, CBS, NBC, etc. They are certainly news outlets for the purposes of this discussion, because the majority of people in the US get their news from one of them. Now, let me also say that I do agree with your assesment overall, but I think that this is irrelevant. The perception of the general public is NOT that CNN is "infotainment" only.
quote: What about his Church's pastor? What about the national association his church may be a member of? For all I know, his denomination might contribute to Pat's causes.
quote: ...and neither do I. But comparing Fred Phelps, who is a joke, with Pat Robertson, Falwell, and Dobson, who each have the ear of the President, are each powerful, wealthy businessmen, one with a popular, well-known international television platform, have each been asked to represent the Christian viewpoint on national mainstream television news programs, is silly. It's not that they are any less crazy than Phelps. They are all just wealthier and smarter and much, much more influential and powerful.
quote: What if those "flake" mathematicians were also pretty powerful, and started gaining influence over our government, and started to take it upon themselves to speak for you, saying that the "flaky" way they do mathematics was the way ALL mathematicians do math. And just because I want to make sure you saw that I answered this...
quote: The same way the abolitionists did, and the same way the anti-child labor people did, and the same way the civil rights workers did in the 60's. This message has been edited by schrafinator, 10-23-2005 01:57 PM
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nator Member (Idle past 2160 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: And that is true.
quote: Isn't that exatly what Robertson claims to do? My point isn't if Robertson actually DOES speak for all Christians. He clearly doesn't. But what I do not understand is why the supposed majority of Christians who do not agree with him are not more vocal (or seemingly vocal at all) on a national or international level. Why do they let Pat take the liberties with their voice that he does?
quote: Don't put words in my mouth again. I am not claiming this, Crash is. Oh, and way back in page 4 or so of this thread, I replied to a little bit of one of your posts...
quote: It is quite well known that there is a sizable, very vocal and active segment of the American people who do not agree with Bush and are against much of what he does. Besides, he actually IS supposed to represent all of us. That's what we have elections for. I think the issue under discussion is that all of the various Protestant groups that do not agree with Robertson are not vocal and not active in opposing Robertson, who claims to represent the Christian voice in America but was never chosen by anyone other than him. This message has been edited by schrafinator, 10-23-2005 01:56 PM
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nator Member (Idle past 2160 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: No. But he could be vocal by writing to advertizers, writing to Robertson, joining protest groups, contacting his regional and national church officials to join or help organize getting the real word out by raising money for a TV commercial (kind of like the commercial for inclusiveness and against the rejection of people from some churches that CBS refused to air not too long ago), etc.
quote: Not you personally, but you would certainly not "live and let live", would you?
quote: But what if there was a sizeable, very vocal minority of mathematicians that was pretty powerful and was much better than you and your "real" mathematicians at promoting their "flaky math" to the general populace?
quote: But what about the threat to what the public believes about mathematics? What if they have never heard of your version and have only seen the flaky math on TV?
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nator Member (Idle past 2160 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: What if it were true that the majority of people in the country were mathematicians, or at least believe in the math god?
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nator Member (Idle past 2160 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Well, wouldn't there be a problem if people who believed the flake mathematicians were in control of all branches of government, and there were several very powerful, prominent flake mathematicians who have convinced a radical, vocal minority of flake "oldtime" mathematicians (or people who believe in the way math "used to be done" and don't agree with the "new math" ways of you and everyone you know)?
quote: And do any of those opposing schools ever allow a flake mathematician to write textbooks, give the keynote lectures at major national conferences, or help set mathematics standards in national school curricula? If this started to happen, wouldn't all of the platonists, intuitionists and constructivists protest as a group, and loudly? Look, I think I am pretty tired of repeating the same argument only to have you ignore it and restate your original claim over and over again.
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nator Member (Idle past 2160 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Here in liberal, college town, pinko hippie Ann Arbor, there's only a couple of churches which are crazy fundie Robertson-lovers. But drive in any direction for 30 minutes or so, and you enter a very scary, scary fundamentalist land where people erect bizarre homemade billboards next to their grain silos and milking parlors depicting the crucified, blood-covered Jesus and warnings of doom and torture if one doesn't repent and accpt the Messiah into one's heart. Then there are the crazy urban cinderblock churches in Detroit that are scattered among the pawn shops, junkyards, liquor stores, crack houses, chop shops, and street walkers. FliesOnly and I really do live in crazy fundie land. I'm in the one oasis of liberal politics and educated thought in about a 200 mile radius.
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nator Member (Idle past 2160 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
Oh, don't worry. I plan to shelter myself in such places for as much of my life as I can.
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