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Author Topic:   Pat Robertson on natural disasters
nator
Member (Idle past 2160 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 43 of 302 (253299)
10-20-2005 9:57 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by crashfrog
10-12-2005 4:21 PM


Re: Waaaaait a minute
quote:
Of course, I could just as easily reply that I've never been to a church that didn't have his literature on hand; on the other hand, I doubt you would take my anecdotal evidence very seriously. How do you suppose I'm going to react to yours?
But I invite you to investigate your claim further. Go to any of the churches you're referring to. See if they subscribe to a one-page fax newsletter called "The Pastor's Weekly Briefing." My church hands out copies every sunday.
If they do, then they're promulgating Pat Robertson and his ideas. This newsletter regularly features his responses, reactions, and opinions on current events. It's put out by the Focus on the Family organization. I've found a copy in just about every Protestant church I've ever looked in.
I elieve that Roman Catholics are the single largest Christian denomination in the US, and you know thay don't pay no nevermind to Pat.
Crash, Ithink that you are being unreasonable.
Just as many members of the NRA do not support it's minority radical leadership and crazy Charlton Heston, many Protestant Christians do not support Robertson.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by crashfrog, posted 10-12-2005 4:21 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by crashfrog, posted 10-20-2005 7:55 PM nator has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2160 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 44 of 302 (253312)
10-20-2005 10:21 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by Nighttrain
10-20-2005 5:55 AM


Re: Extremism
quote:
What does a nutcase like Pat have to do to provoke outrage from Christians? Suggest nuking Mecca as a hotbed of infidels? Demand the castration of gays? Relight the fires to burn atheists? Where does the comfort level peak and activism start?
I do actually think that the "normal majority" of Christians have been far too complicit in letting Pat Robertson have free reign and his lofty platform.
Catholics, for example, were rightly outraged when they found out that the Church leadership had had a longstanding protection and relocation program for pedophile priests. They held the church's feet to the fire for a long time and even got Rome to respond.
Shouldn't Protestants be doing the same thing with Robertson?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by Nighttrain, posted 10-20-2005 5:55 AM Nighttrain has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by Jazzns, posted 10-20-2005 11:28 AM nator has replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2160 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 49 of 302 (253437)
10-20-2005 2:57 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by Jazzns
10-20-2005 11:28 AM


Re: Extremism
Shouldn't Protestants be doing the same thing with Robertson?
quote:
Certainly if there was a central Protestant authority similar to the Vattican I would say yes.
Are you telling me that various Protestant denominations do not generally agree on their rejection of Robertson's cooption of their voice?
This message has been edited by schrafinator, 10-20-2005 02:58 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Jazzns, posted 10-20-2005 11:28 AM Jazzns has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by nwr, posted 10-20-2005 3:23 PM nator has replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2160 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 59 of 302 (253505)
10-20-2005 7:09 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by nwr
10-20-2005 3:23 PM


Re: Extremism
quote:
It is my assumption that most protestant denominations reject Robertson, but that they have never come together to reach any agreement between them on that position.
Well, then it seems to me that if there is confusion among people if all of the various Protestant Christian groups want or do not want Robertson speaking for them, then they only have themselves to blame.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by nwr, posted 10-20-2005 3:23 PM nwr has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2160 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 60 of 302 (253508)
10-20-2005 7:14 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by Silent H
10-20-2005 3:28 PM


Re: Invention of a Christian Consensus
quote:
I will ask you the same thing that I asked Crash, if someone said that since you are an american you must be for Bush and everything Bush has done would that be correct or incorrect?
It is quite well known that there is a sizable, very vocal and active segment of the American people who do not agree with Bush and are against much of what he does.
Besides, he actually IS supposed to represent all of us. That's what we have elections for.
I think the issue under discussion is that all of the various Protestant groups that do not agree with Robertson are not vocal and not active in opposing Robertson, who claims to represent the Christian voice in America but was never chosen by anyone other than him.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by Silent H, posted 10-20-2005 3:28 PM Silent H has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by nwr, posted 10-20-2005 7:29 PM nator has replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2160 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 87 of 302 (253668)
10-21-2005 11:15 AM
Reply to: Message 62 by nwr
10-20-2005 7:29 PM


Re: Invention of a Christian Consensus
quote:
How can they be active in vocally opposing Robertson, while at the same time they practice "Love thy neighbor as thyself"?
The same way the abolitionists did, and the same way the anti-child labor people did, and the same way the civil rights workers did in the 60's.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by nwr, posted 10-20-2005 7:29 PM nwr has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2160 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 89 of 302 (253671)
10-21-2005 11:26 AM
Reply to: Message 88 by nwr
10-21-2005 11:18 AM


Re: Invention of a Christian Consensus
quote:
Let's suppose that tomorrow, Robertson were to decide to stop being a christian, and to instead join a satanic cult. Would Jazzns then join the same satanic cult?
But if Robertson began claiming that he represented the views of all Satanist cult members, and that there were millions of Satanist cult members all across the country, comprising many different sub-groups, and many of them did not agree with the way Robertson promoted Satanism, yet those people did nothing to oppose his misrepresentations, then it would be reasonable for people to assume that all or many of the Satanic cult members were OK with what Robertson was saying about the views of all Satanic cults.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by nwr, posted 10-21-2005 11:18 AM nwr has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by nwr, posted 10-21-2005 1:37 PM nator has replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2160 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 122 of 302 (253971)
10-22-2005 10:38 AM
Reply to: Message 93 by nwr
10-21-2005 1:37 PM


Re: Invention of a Christian Consensus
quote:
If Jazzns believes that Robertson discredits all christians, then he should be speaking out.
If, however, Jazzns thinks that Robertson is a flake, that Robertson is widely recognized as a flake, and that Robertson discredits only himself, then Jazzns doesn't have to do anything.
It seems to me that the second of those better describes what Jazzns faces. In any case, it is up to Jazzns to judge that. I don't know why people are second guessing him.
I think it's a little more than that.
It's not just that Robertson is a "flake".
He's a "flake" who is is clearly also a bigot, sexist, homophobe, and hate-monger, with a very prominent international audience, the ear of the President of the United States, and who constantly takes it upon himself to speak for all Christians.
He's not just some local crazy preacher whom most people ignore.
And I don't get the impression that Robertson (or Fallwell or Dobson) are "widely recognized" as flakes.
All of them routinely appear on mainstram national news broadcasts to present the "Christian" viewpoint on various issues.
This message has been edited by schrafinator, 10-22-2005 10:40 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by nwr, posted 10-21-2005 1:37 PM nwr has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 123 by nwr, posted 10-22-2005 11:01 AM nator has replied
 Message 125 by Silent H, posted 10-22-2005 11:11 AM nator has replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2160 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 168 of 302 (254210)
10-23-2005 1:42 PM
Reply to: Message 123 by nwr
10-22-2005 11:01 AM


Re: Invention of a Christian Consensus
quote:
There are no "mainstream national news broadcasts" - unless you consider PBS and NPR to be mainstream.
All of the other outlets are entertainment media which present entertainment programs that they mislabel as news. Robertson appears, not because he is important, not because he is representative, but because he introduces drama suitable for these entertainment programs.
Oh, for goodness sake.
This is not how most Americans view CNN, CBS, NBC, etc.
They are certainly news outlets for the purposes of this discussion, because the majority of people in the US get their news from one of them.
Now, let me also say that I do agree with your assesment overall, but I think that this is irrelevant.
The perception of the general public is NOT that CNN is "infotainment" only.
quote:
I expect that most of Jazzns's friends already know how he feels about Robertson. Why is that not sufficient speaking out?
What about his Church's pastor? What about the national association his church may be a member of?
For all I know, his denomination might contribute to Pat's causes.
quote:
Sure, there are some people who are quite obviously not christian -- Pat Robertson and Fred Phelps for example -- but who masquerade as christians. I don't hold that against those of my friends who are christians.
...and neither do I.
But comparing Fred Phelps, who is a joke, with Pat Robertson, Falwell, and Dobson, who each have the ear of the President, are each powerful, wealthy businessmen, one with a popular, well-known international television platform, have each been asked to represent the Christian viewpoint on national mainstream television news programs, is silly.
It's not that they are any less crazy than Phelps. They are all just wealthier and smarter and much, much more influential and powerful.
quote:
I consider myself a mathematician. I don't spend a lot of time denouncing mathematicians who happen to be flakes. Unless they are creating a specific problem for me, it is usually wiser to live and let live.
What if those "flake" mathematicians were also pretty powerful, and started gaining influence over our government, and started to take it upon themselves to speak for you, saying that the "flaky" way they do mathematics was the way ALL mathematicians do math.
And just because I want to make sure you saw that I answered this...
quote:
How can they be active in vocally opposing Robertson, while at the same time they practice "Love thy neighbor as thyself"?
The same way the abolitionists did, and the same way the anti-child labor people did, and the same way the civil rights workers did in the 60's.
This message has been edited by schrafinator, 10-23-2005 01:57 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by nwr, posted 10-22-2005 11:01 AM nwr has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 171 by nwr, posted 10-23-2005 2:08 PM nator has replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2160 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 170 of 302 (254212)
10-23-2005 1:51 PM
Reply to: Message 125 by Silent H
10-22-2005 11:11 AM


Re: Invention of a Christian Consensus
quote:
You and crash are a riot. You have both stated to creos that evo is not necessarily against Xianity, and there are Xians who are evos.
And that is true.
quote:
But now all of a sudden you guys pretend Robertson can speak for all Xians
Isn't that exatly what Robertson claims to do?
My point isn't if Robertson actually DOES speak for all Christians.
He clearly doesn't.
But what I do not understand is why the supposed majority of Christians who do not agree with him are not more vocal (or seemingly vocal at all) on a national or international level.
Why do they let Pat take the liberties with their voice that he does?
quote:
and so the Bible must be inerrant and literal as he says?
Don't put words in my mouth again.
I am not claiming this, Crash is.
Oh, and way back in page 4 or so of this thread, I replied to a little bit of one of your posts...
quote:
I will ask you the same thing that I asked Crash, if someone said that since you are an american you must be for Bush and everything Bush has done would that be correct or incorrect?
It is quite well known that there is a sizable, very vocal and active segment of the American people who do not agree with Bush and are against much of what he does.
Besides, he actually IS supposed to represent all of us. That's what we have elections for.
I think the issue under discussion is that all of the various Protestant groups that do not agree with Robertson are not vocal and not active in opposing Robertson, who claims to represent the Christian voice in America but was never chosen by anyone other than him.
This message has been edited by schrafinator, 10-23-2005 01:56 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by Silent H, posted 10-22-2005 11:11 AM Silent H has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 183 by Silent H, posted 10-24-2005 8:09 AM nator has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2160 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 176 of 302 (254241)
10-23-2005 4:20 PM
Reply to: Message 171 by nwr
10-23-2005 2:08 PM


Re: Invention of a Christian Consensus
quote:
And what then, is your point? Are you asserting that Jazzns should get his own TV network, and spend billions on advertising to attract a viewership, just so that he can counter what is said by Pat Robertson on those outlets.
No.
But he could be vocal by writing to advertizers, writing to Robertson, joining protest groups, contacting his regional and national church officials to join or help organize getting the real word out by raising money for a TV commercial (kind of like the commercial for inclusiveness and against the rejection of people from some churches that CBS refused to air not too long ago), etc.
quote:
It is not my responsibility to publically denounce a flake mathematician.
Not you personally, but you would certainly not "live and let live", would you?
quote:
I would not need to persuade my fellow mathematicians that he was a flake, for that would already be obvious to them.
But what if there was a sizeable, very vocal minority of mathematicians that was pretty powerful and was much better than you and your "real" mathematicians at promoting their "flaky math" to the general populace?
quote:
It is my responsibility, as a citizen and as a voter, to work against incompetent politicians who have demonstrated poor judgement.
But what about the threat to what the public believes about mathematics? What if they have never heard of your version and have only seen the flaky math on TV?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 171 by nwr, posted 10-23-2005 2:08 PM nwr has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2160 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 177 of 302 (254242)
10-23-2005 4:23 PM
Reply to: Message 175 by nwr
10-23-2005 3:55 PM


Re: Invention of a Christian Consensus
quote:
It is not up to the public to be able to assess what is fake mathematics and what is real mathematics.
What if it were true that the majority of people in the country were mathematicians, or at least believe in the math god?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 175 by nwr, posted 10-23-2005 3:55 PM nwr has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 178 by nwr, posted 10-23-2005 4:31 PM nator has replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2160 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 179 of 302 (254345)
10-23-2005 10:53 PM
Reply to: Message 178 by nwr
10-23-2005 4:31 PM


Re: Invention of a Christian Consensus
quote:
If it were true that the majority were mathematicians, then most of them would already recognize who are the fake mathematicians. There wouldn't be much of a problem, even if the press portrayed it differently.
Well, wouldn't there be a problem if people who believed the flake mathematicians were in control of all branches of government, and there were several very powerful, prominent flake mathematicians who have convinced a radical, vocal minority of flake "oldtime" mathematicians (or people who believe in the way math "used to be done" and don't agree with the "new math" ways of you and everyone you know)?
quote:
Incidently, there are different schools of mathematics, most notably platonism, intuitionism and constructivism. These schools have serious disagreements about how mathematics should be done. But they generally respect one another, and they usually agree on what is a fake mathematician.
And do any of those opposing schools ever allow a flake mathematician to write textbooks, give the keynote lectures at major national conferences, or help set mathematics standards in national school curricula?
If this started to happen, wouldn't all of the platonists, intuitionists and constructivists protest as a group, and loudly?
Look, I think I am pretty tired of repeating the same argument only to have you ignore it and restate your original claim over and over again.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 178 by nwr, posted 10-23-2005 4:31 PM nwr has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 180 by nwr, posted 10-23-2005 11:14 PM nator has not replied
 Message 181 by NosyNed, posted 10-24-2005 12:09 AM nator has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2160 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 193 of 302 (254579)
10-24-2005 9:19 PM
Reply to: Message 192 by NosyNed
10-24-2005 5:05 PM


Re: Context used to "stereotype"
quote:
I'm astonished that you know so few Christians; or, perhaps, you live in a part of the world with a concentration of the worst sort of them.
Here in liberal, college town, pinko hippie Ann Arbor, there's only a couple of churches which are crazy fundie Robertson-lovers.
But drive in any direction for 30 minutes or so, and you enter a very scary, scary fundamentalist land where people erect bizarre homemade billboards next to their grain silos and milking parlors depicting the crucified, blood-covered Jesus and warnings of doom and torture if one doesn't repent and accpt the Messiah into one's heart.
Then there are the crazy urban cinderblock churches in Detroit that are scattered among the pawn shops, junkyards, liquor stores, crack houses, chop shops, and street walkers.
FliesOnly and I really do live in crazy fundie land. I'm in the one oasis of liberal politics and educated thought in about a 200 mile radius.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 192 by NosyNed, posted 10-24-2005 5:05 PM NosyNed has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 195 by Silent H, posted 10-25-2005 12:15 PM nator has not replied
 Message 197 by Phat, posted 10-25-2005 12:30 PM nator has replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2160 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 198 of 302 (254718)
10-25-2005 1:26 PM
Reply to: Message 197 by Phat
10-25-2005 12:30 PM


Re: Context used to "stereotype"
Oh, don't worry. I plan to shelter myself in such places for as much of my life as I can.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 197 by Phat, posted 10-25-2005 12:30 PM Phat has not replied

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