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Author Topic:   Discovery or Ignorance: The Choice Is yours?
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 9004
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 48 of 402 (473898)
07-03-2008 1:38 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by John 10:10
07-03-2008 1:10 PM


More misunderstanding
True science looks at things that can be proven to a very degree of accuracy, not theories can that never be proven.
The evolutionary model is just such a thing. It is supported by so much evidence that it has an extremely high probability of being true.
"Proven" is used, technically, in math where things actually can be proven with a 100 % chance of being right.
There is a vast difference between looking at the evidence that "supposedly" supports the theory of evolution, and the proof that evolution actually works over billions of years, taking life from simple cell creatures to complex man.
What you need is evidence. Actually any evidence at all. None is what you have supplied.
What you need here is evidence that shows that it could NOT have taking life through it's development over the last 3 billion years. All the evidence we have says it can and did.
Oh, by the way, we HAVE that evidence, 1,000,000's and millions of bits of it. You, on the other hand seem to be stunningly short of it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by John 10:10, posted 07-03-2008 1:10 PM John 10:10 has replied

Replies to this message:
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NosyNed
Member
Posts: 9004
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 59 of 402 (473917)
07-03-2008 4:07 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by John 10:10
07-03-2008 2:13 PM


Such!
No such thing!!! All the evolutionary model has are bits and pieces of an evolutionary particles-to-people process that is nothing but unsubstantiated hypothesis or conjecture.
Wrong!
As others have been, with moderate patience so far, pointing out to you you have no idea what you are talking about. You know nothing of the science involved or the evidence behind it. Your ignorance makes no dents in the science.

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 Message 50 by John 10:10, posted 07-03-2008 2:13 PM John 10:10 has not replied

NosyNed
Member
Posts: 9004
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 76 of 402 (473950)
07-03-2008 8:58 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by John 10:10
07-03-2008 8:48 PM


Re: You're an ape, John
So that's how the DNA of cells figured out how to become DNA in the first place.
OK, show me the evidence?
Since you've moved back in time to this different topic and don't want to discuss biological evolution anymore does that mean you've decided that we are right on all the rest. That is, you agree that once DNA was in place, however that happened, the evolutionary model best fits the facts we have at hand.
If you haven't finished with the area that there is such overwhelming evidence for (approximately none of which you are aware of) then what good does it do to move onto another area?
If you looked around this site you'd find that almost everyone here agrees that, while there are a large number of good clues about your question, there isn't any definitive answer. So let's all agree that this is a "don't know the answer (yet)" area. Any problems with that?
So we have two areas of agreement:
1) We all don't know exactly how DNA formed in the first place.
2) We have one very good explanation for the development of life since then.
Right?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by John 10:10, posted 07-03-2008 8:48 PM John 10:10 has replied

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NosyNed
Member
Posts: 9004
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 92 of 402 (474002)
07-04-2008 10:34 AM
Reply to: Message 88 by John 10:10
07-04-2008 10:14 AM


Eggs and Chickens
In my view, the chicken came first, designed by our Creator, with the ability to replicate itself, as do most other creatures including man.
Then explain why there is lots of occurrences of eggs long, long, long before we find any occurrences of chickens.
John, you can believe all you want. But if you choose to believe things which have hard evidence showing them to be false then you make the whole package of your beliefs look utterly foolish.
This is why some of the strongest opponents of creationism are not "evil evolutionists" as you think but rather are devote Christians who hate to be associated with people who tarnish their beliefs with obvious utter nonsense.
You'd do your religion more good if you actually educated yourself just a little.
BTW: you are, I think, right that the video presented does not show the origin of DNA. You have chosen to ignore my comment on the origins of life.
It seems you can't stick to one line of reasoning at a time.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by John 10:10, posted 07-04-2008 10:14 AM John 10:10 has replied

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NosyNed
Member
Posts: 9004
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 134 of 402 (474091)
07-05-2008 10:25 AM
Reply to: Message 133 by ICANT
07-05-2008 10:17 AM


Staffing
Stupid me I thought Nuclear Plants were run by Nuclear Scientist.
I thought the engineers just built and carried out the requests and plans of the Nuclear Scientist.
I don't know the details (and would be interested to hear more about it) but I would be very surprised if there was a single physicist on any nuclear power sites.
There might be some involved with firms like GE that do the engineering and building but even that doesn't seem to be necessary at the actual plant design stage even.
I would hope that GE (and others ) have a team of physicists and engineers doing more basic research into new reactor designs since the one currently used was borrowed from military (subs) applications and apparently shouldn't have been used.

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 Message 133 by ICANT, posted 07-05-2008 10:17 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
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NosyNed
Member
Posts: 9004
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 138 of 402 (474104)
07-05-2008 11:34 AM
Reply to: Message 136 by ICANT
07-05-2008 10:59 AM


Observations
John 10 10 seems to have a common misunderstandings:
Namely that "observation" has to me "looking at with your eyes".
In actual fact we "observe", in that sense, almost nothing. In fact, what we personally "see" (let's use that word for being there and looking at something) is enormously limited and inaccurate.
Therefore you generally don't want information that is just from seeing. You want to observe (in the sense of capture, record, measure etc.) with better tools than your eyes.
He also seems confused about past events and "observing" them. Everything you "see" or "observe" happened in the past. Sometimes only nanoseconds ago however.
We "observe" things that happened in the past by looking for the effects that ripple out from them. If something is in the room with you it is, perhaps, the light coming to you. If it is down the block out of sight it might be the sound it makes that gets to you a second or two later (you are "hearing" into the past).
Most of the time, and I mean the vast majority of the time, we find other things to "observe". I "observe" the mess in the kitchen this morning and conclude that my son was up in the middle of the night again. If I can't have this kind of "observation" then I can conclude almost nothing about anything.
As others have noted not using this precludes most unwitnessed-crime investigations.
We "observe" the chain of fossil forms that are as clear as foot prints of an size 14 Adidas sneaker at a crime scene. With this observation (and many 1,000s of others) we arrive at the most reasonable conclusion we can.
He also (and you too) may be a bit careless with the word "fact". Most of us, most of the time think something is a fact or it is not a fact. Totally binary, totally black and white.
This is most often not the case. The mess in the kitchen might, some day, be due to a break-in. It is just so very, very likely to be true that we don't bother with nuances and call it a fact.
Scientific papers are about the only place where this nuance is commonly observed. They almost never state something categorically as fact.
Somethings may be only a pretty good guess -- say with a better than 50% chance of being true. Other things are pretty bloody sure of being true -- say 98 % and most of us, most of the time, would start to call it a fact.
The chains connecting water creatures to land creatures are solid enough to meet any common idea of the word "fact". The likelihood of the broad process being true is much higher than 98%. (Details need more work).
So we can observe the past, just as directly as we do most things in life. We can arrive at a degree of certainty so high that, while less than 100%, is still higher than for most things we would all be comfortable with calling "fact"

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NosyNed
Member
Posts: 9004
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 149 of 402 (474125)
07-05-2008 4:53 PM
Reply to: Message 143 by ICANT
07-05-2008 12:33 PM


qualifications
FPL needs a NUCLEAR PSA in Juno Fl. The requirements are a Bachelor's degree in science and 12 years in Nuclear experience.
I have a BSc in physics. That does not, not nearly, make me a research scientist. Any number of years running a plant does not make me one bit more a physicist.
This sounds exactly like a technician to me but I'd want to know what is meant my "nuclear experience".
As Rrhain pointed out you probably don't want a research physicist running the plant anyway.

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NosyNed
Member
Posts: 9004
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 202 of 402 (474255)
07-07-2008 10:04 AM
Reply to: Message 201 by mike the wiz
07-07-2008 9:25 AM


Alternate Interpretations
Creationism isn't ignorance, it's just an alternative explanation for those who genuinely believe that history happened according to how the Holy Bible said it did.
Hi again Mike, glad to see you again.
Over and over again we see this "alternate explanation" line. We ask to see how this explains the facts at hand. We never get an answer.
There is no alternate explanation! It just doesn't exist. If you think there is a new thread titled "The Creationist Alternate Explanation/Interpretation" would be a good place to show it.
Remember it has to actually be an explanation! It actually has to explain the facts available. It is, of course, a big job. But you can show it a little at a time with appropriate references to the details as supplied by creationist "research" organizations.
Given that this explanation exists it is odd that no one has supplied it yet. Maybe you can just explain that?

This message is a reply to:
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NosyNed
Member
Posts: 9004
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 205 of 402 (474260)
07-07-2008 11:29 AM
Reply to: Message 204 by LucyTheApe
07-07-2008 11:14 AM


Re: Observations
This video is premised on a random chemical process. Which, of course is a false premise.Speciation is evolution is speciation; circular reasoning!
I don't understand the point you are making here. I don't see how it applies to the topic at hand. Perhaps you can elaborate a lot more.
What we see with the Ecoli is inbuilt adaption not evolution.
"Inbuilt" in exactly what way? How is this not evolution?
You seem very sure of what you say so I'm sure you are prepared to back it up. lol

This message is a reply to:
 Message 204 by LucyTheApe, posted 07-07-2008 11:14 AM LucyTheApe has replied

Replies to this message:
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