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Author
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Topic: Since it IS Christmas time......
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hooah212002
Member (Idle past 831 days) Posts: 3193 Joined: 08-12-2009
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Message 1 of 126 (540361)
12-24-2009 10:10 AM
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I just wanted to remind all of our resident Christians how they are celebrating a pagan holiday, stolen by christianity. What's that you say? You already knew that? How does that sit with you?
Here is a great site to remind you. Now, christiananswers.net mentions Matthew 1:18-25 and Luke 2:1-20 as the historical record for jesus' birth, both of which fail to pin it down. The closest we can come to any sort of time frame (that I have been able to find so far) is in Luke 1:26:
quote:
Now in the sixth month, the angel Gabriel was sent from God to a city of Galilee, named Nazareth, 27to a virgin pledged to be married to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David. The virgin’s name was Mary. 28Having come in, the angel said to her, Rejoice, you highly favored one! The Lord is with you. Blessed are you among women! 29But when she saw him, she was greatly troubled at the saying, and considered what kind of salutation this might be. 30The angel said to her, Don’t be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. 31Behold, you will conceive in your womb, and bring forth a son, and will call his name ‘Jesus.’ 32He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father, David, 33and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever. There will be no end to his Kingdom. 34Mary said to the angel, How can this be, seeing I am a virgin? 35The angel answered her, The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. Therefore also the holy one who is born from you will be called the Son of God. 36Behold, Elizabeth, your relative, also has conceived a son in her old age; and this is the sixth month with her who was called barren. 37For everything spoken by God is possible. 38Mary said, Behold, the handmaid of the Lord; be it to me according to your word. The angel departed from her.
—Luke 1:26
The aforementioned "sixth month" is the sixth month of Elizabeth's pregnancy. Funnily enough, nowhere does it mention what month she got knocked up. As we can see from numerous sources, including my first link, that December 25th was chosen, by the catholic church, in an effort to sway pagans to christianity because of there celebration of Saturnalia, or the winter solstice. This celebration is found to be where a majority of our traditions stem from. Christmas trees (a sign of male virility), wreaths (a symbol of female virilty) etc.. My main question is this: christianity has based an entire cult around ONE man, with one of his main claims to fame being that of a virgin birth, yet, you really don't even know what month he was born in? Also, how does it sit with you that you are celebrating a stolen pagan festivity and attributing it to your lord and saviour?
Who are we? We find that we live on an insignificant planet of a humdrum star lost in a galaxy tucked away in some forgotten corner of a universe in which there are far more galaxies than people -Carl Sagan For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. -Carl Sagan
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hooah212002
Member (Idle past 831 days) Posts: 3193 Joined: 08-12-2009
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Message 3 of 126 (540383)
12-24-2009 2:56 PM
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Luke 2:8
We could even look at Luke 2:8 that states:
Luke 2:8, courtesy of biblegateway writes: And there were in the same country shepherds abiding in the field, keeping watch over their flock by night.
if we believe any of the bible, (psst: I don't) even this would lean towards this jesus fella being born in spring at best. So what we have is a random date, chosen by the romans/catholic church, in an effort to supress the pagans and/or make it easier to convert them. Either way, it is an act of deceipt. How, again, is x-mas a religious holiday? (technically speaking)
Who are we? We find that we live on an insignificant planet of a humdrum star lost in a galaxy tucked away in some forgotten corner of a universe in which there are far more galaxies than people -Carl Sagan For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. -Carl Sagan
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 25 by Buzsaw, posted 12-25-2009 12:02 AM | | hooah212002 has replied |
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hooah212002
Member (Idle past 831 days) Posts: 3193 Joined: 08-12-2009
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Message 6 of 126 (540389)
12-24-2009 3:33 PM
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Reply to: Message 5 by Blue Jay
12-24-2009 3:21 PM
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I think there is a general understanding among Christians that Jesus wasn't born in December: either way, this really isn't a big revelation. It may not be news to many, but it seems to me like the birth of their alleged messiah is just kind of like "meh, we'll say it was this day who cares". That, and it was done just for the purpose of stifling other celebrations. THAT seems hypocritical.
Another point to make: I sure hope you don't celebrate Christmas in your home, because otherwise, this would be an extremely hypocritical thread, don't you think? I celebrate the tradition, not the birth of christ.
Who are we? We find that we live on an insignificant planet of a humdrum star lost in a galaxy tucked away in some forgotten corner of a universe in which there are far more galaxies than people -Carl Sagan For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. -Carl Sagan
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 5 by Blue Jay, posted 12-24-2009 3:21 PM | | Blue Jay has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 12 by Blue Jay, posted 12-24-2009 5:11 PM | | hooah212002 has replied |
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hooah212002
Member (Idle past 831 days) Posts: 3193 Joined: 08-12-2009
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Message 7 of 126 (540390)
12-24-2009 3:52 PM
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Reply to: Message 4 by Modulous
12-24-2009 3:05 PM
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Yes - it was a pagan festival, and if this made it easier to convert gentiles to the true religion of god and deliver them into salvation then all the better! So it is ok to lie and deceive (and steal birth dates from other religions) in an effort to gain members for your religion?
Who are we? We find that we live on an insignificant planet of a humdrum star lost in a galaxy tucked away in some forgotten corner of a universe in which there are far more galaxies than people -Carl Sagan For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. -Carl Sagan
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 4 by Modulous, posted 12-24-2009 3:05 PM | | Modulous has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 9 by Modulous, posted 12-24-2009 4:15 PM | | hooah212002 has replied |
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hooah212002
Member (Idle past 831 days) Posts: 3193 Joined: 08-12-2009
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Message 10 of 126 (540396)
12-24-2009 4:19 PM
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Reply to: Message 8 by slevesque
12-24-2009 4:13 PM
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Here's the situation of the time. The christian faith is expanding, and expanding fast. I mean really fast. And so much that it is very hard to keep track of the ever growing flow of new people coming in the church, all with different backgrounds and pagan belief. It was in order to help in this transitional phase that the church officials decided to ''highjack'' the old pagan beliefs and give them a christian meaning. I suppose I could see it that way. But it just seems to me that the birth of jesus should be a bit more important is all. Moreso than to just be able to say: "well, we've got some newcomers, let's celebrate his birthday around their holiday to make them welcome". It just seems a bit morbid that jesus' life means fuck all and his death is revered. It would seem to me then, that it makes anything he did in life mean fuck all too, yes? All that is important is that he died.
Who are we? We find that we live on an insignificant planet of a humdrum star lost in a galaxy tucked away in some forgotten corner of a universe in which there are far more galaxies than people -Carl Sagan For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. -Carl Sagan
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 8 by slevesque, posted 12-24-2009 4:13 PM | | slevesque has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 14 by Modulous, posted 12-24-2009 5:21 PM | | hooah212002 has replied |
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hooah212002
Member (Idle past 831 days) Posts: 3193 Joined: 08-12-2009
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Message 11 of 126 (540397)
12-24-2009 4:27 PM
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Reply to: Message 5 by Blue Jay
12-24-2009 3:21 PM
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.....this really isn't a big revelation. you know, I think you are right. I guess I assumed it SHOULD matter when it doesn't. I guess my main contention is the actual religious overtones associated with the holiday when, technically, there should be none.
Who are we? We find that we live on an insignificant planet of a humdrum star lost in a galaxy tucked away in some forgotten corner of a universe in which there are far more galaxies than people -Carl Sagan For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. -Carl Sagan
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 5 by Blue Jay, posted 12-24-2009 3:21 PM | | Blue Jay has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 17 by Tanypteryx, posted 12-24-2009 5:35 PM | | hooah212002 has replied |
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hooah212002
Member (Idle past 831 days) Posts: 3193 Joined: 08-12-2009
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Message 13 of 126 (540403)
12-24-2009 5:18 PM
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Reply to: Message 12 by Blue Jay
12-24-2009 5:11 PM
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Re: Christianity and Rocket Science
What's the difference between you celebrating something on a Christian holiday and a Christian celebrating something on a pagan holiday? Because it is not a christian holiday, technically speaking. Christians adopted the day from other religions BEFORE them. I could just as easily say it's a Persian holiday, right?
Who are we? We find that we live on an insignificant planet of a humdrum star lost in a galaxy tucked away in some forgotten corner of a universe in which there are far more galaxies than people -Carl Sagan For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. -Carl Sagan
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 12 by Blue Jay, posted 12-24-2009 5:11 PM | | Blue Jay has replied |
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hooah212002
Member (Idle past 831 days) Posts: 3193 Joined: 08-12-2009
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Message 15 of 126 (540405)
12-24-2009 5:23 PM
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Reply to: Message 9 by Modulous
12-24-2009 4:15 PM
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After all - what early Roman Catholics or what have you did to gain converts doesn't impact on the truth (or lack thereof) of the miraculous birth of Jesus...and if they tried to convince people that the 25th (or whichever other nearby date) was the date of Christ's birth while also knowing that it wasn't true then I think most Christians would agree that was dishonest. Again, here we can point out all of the other deities who were said to be: -born of a virgin -born on December 25th among others, ALL coming before the widespread belief in christianity. Those who don't see that are not wishing to see the whole picture.
Who are we? We find that we live on an insignificant planet of a humdrum star lost in a galaxy tucked away in some forgotten corner of a universe in which there are far more galaxies than people -Carl Sagan For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. -Carl Sagan
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 9 by Modulous, posted 12-24-2009 4:15 PM | | Modulous has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 18 by Modulous, posted 12-24-2009 5:42 PM | | hooah212002 has replied |
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hooah212002
Member (Idle past 831 days) Posts: 3193 Joined: 08-12-2009
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Message 16 of 126 (540406)
12-24-2009 5:28 PM
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Reply to: Message 14 by Modulous
12-24-2009 5:21 PM
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I suppose you are right. To make it fit the story. It's still fucked. I mean, rumor has it, Jesus was a straight dude. The things he allegedly said were good for the world. To chalk it all up to nothing and his only purpose was death? Not my cup of tea, thanks anyways. I'll admit I am early on in my hardcore non-belief. I've been in-flux for some time, but now I am past the breaking point. All of what i am learning now is really showing me that the whole thing is just a really neat story: shit told around a campfire or stolen from previous groups of people.
Who are we? We find that we live on an insignificant planet of a humdrum star lost in a galaxy tucked away in some forgotten corner of a universe in which there are far more galaxies than people -Carl Sagan For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. -Carl Sagan
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 14 by Modulous, posted 12-24-2009 5:21 PM | | Modulous has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 19 by Modulous, posted 12-24-2009 5:46 PM | | hooah212002 has replied | | | Message 36 by Hyroglyphx, posted 12-25-2009 2:49 PM | | hooah212002 has seen this message but not replied |
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hooah212002
Member (Idle past 831 days) Posts: 3193 Joined: 08-12-2009
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Message 20 of 126 (540410)
12-24-2009 6:03 PM
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Reply to: Message 18 by Modulous
12-24-2009 5:42 PM
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Less than that stupid documentary, Zeitgeist claims. While that movie did get my ball rolling (albeit, some time ago. It's been a while since I have seen it), that is not what I had been referencing as of late.
That wouldn't change that it is just a date during which celebrations take place that some people use to celebrate the birth of one person, and other people celebrate the rededication of the Holy Temple, the Signature of the Constitution of the Republic of China, Odin, the coming fertility, the hunt, African Culture, the victory of good over evil, or of course "Holiday" (celebrating whatever the Pastafarian decides). Right. I agree. So, as I pointed out to Bluejay, since all of this is known, why then, is christmas a "christian holiday"? Wouldn't it be more of just a Winter tradition? (which admittedly, it is becoming just that) Edited by hooah212002, : my shift key is being stubborn. I's are coming out i's
Who are we? We find that we live on an insignificant planet of a humdrum star lost in a galaxy tucked away in some forgotten corner of a universe in which there are far more galaxies than people -Carl Sagan For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. -Carl Sagan
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 18 by Modulous, posted 12-24-2009 5:42 PM | | Modulous has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 23 by Modulous, posted 12-24-2009 6:49 PM | | hooah212002 has replied |
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hooah212002
Member (Idle past 831 days) Posts: 3193 Joined: 08-12-2009
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Message 21 of 126 (540411)
12-24-2009 6:06 PM
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Reply to: Message 19 by Modulous
12-24-2009 5:46 PM
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Ah - then excuse my tone, if it seems offish. Quite not. I admire your reservation, especially in some of the more heated debates where certain parties just don't listen.
Who are we? We find that we live on an insignificant planet of a humdrum star lost in a galaxy tucked away in some forgotten corner of a universe in which there are far more galaxies than people -Carl Sagan For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. -Carl Sagan
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 19 by Modulous, posted 12-24-2009 5:46 PM | | Modulous has seen this message but not replied |
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hooah212002
Member (Idle past 831 days) Posts: 3193 Joined: 08-12-2009
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You might as well get uptight about the celebration of the New Year 12 days after the Winter Solstice. Who is uptight? I am seeking knowledge, in my admittedly brash undertone.
Christmas is still a fun time with kids and grandkids! That's what it is all about, my friend.
Who are we? We find that we live on an insignificant planet of a humdrum star lost in a galaxy tucked away in some forgotten corner of a universe in which there are far more galaxies than people -Carl Sagan For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. -Carl Sagan
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 17 by Tanypteryx, posted 12-24-2009 5:35 PM | | Tanypteryx has not replied |
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hooah212002
Member (Idle past 831 days) Posts: 3193 Joined: 08-12-2009
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Message 24 of 126 (540422)
12-24-2009 11:18 PM
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Reply to: Message 23 by Modulous
12-24-2009 6:49 PM
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Christmas is a Christian holy day, the clue being in the title You've got me there. I guess I just use the term out of *gasp* tradition. I do celebrate "christmas", just not Christ-Mass.
However, it appears us evil secularists have stolen the name of Christmas and used it to describe what we are celebrating too. So I suppose Christians are going to have to get used to the fact that Christmas is not only a holiday that occurs at the same time as other religions holidays, but it also refers to a secular festivity as well. Indeed. Happy Winter Solstice!
Who are we? We find that we live on an insignificant planet of a humdrum star lost in a galaxy tucked away in some forgotten corner of a universe in which there are far more galaxies than people -Carl Sagan For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. -Carl Sagan
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 23 by Modulous, posted 12-24-2009 6:49 PM | | Modulous has seen this message but not replied |
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hooah212002
Member (Idle past 831 days) Posts: 3193 Joined: 08-12-2009
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Message 31 of 126 (540482)
12-25-2009 2:17 PM
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Reply to: Message 28 by Blue Jay
12-25-2009 12:46 PM
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Re: Christianity and Rocket Science
How come you get to celebrate pagan holidays? Like I've said before: I celebrate the tradition. Christmas has become nothing more than a time of the year to get together with family and enjoy their company. It is a holiday recognized worldwide (practically). It is one time of the year we all get to spread cheer and be merry. Like the song "Santa Clause is Coming to Town" says: "You better be good for goodness sake!"
Who are we? We find that we live on an insignificant planet of a humdrum star lost in a galaxy tucked away in some forgotten corner of a universe in which there are far more galaxies than people -Carl Sagan For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. -Carl Sagan
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 28 by Blue Jay, posted 12-25-2009 12:46 PM | | Blue Jay has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 39 by Blue Jay, posted 12-26-2009 11:05 AM | | hooah212002 has seen this message but not replied |
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hooah212002
Member (Idle past 831 days) Posts: 3193 Joined: 08-12-2009
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Message 32 of 126 (540485)
12-25-2009 2:19 PM
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Reply to: Message 25 by Buzsaw
12-25-2009 12:02 AM
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Re: The Emperor Constantine's Role
Great post buz. You put all the facts together quite nicely. I had just started my quest to find the origins of all this, and you did alot of the work for me.
Who are we? We find that we live on an insignificant planet of a humdrum star lost in a galaxy tucked away in some forgotten corner of a universe in which there are far more galaxies than people -Carl Sagan For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. -Carl Sagan
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 25 by Buzsaw, posted 12-25-2009 12:02 AM | | Buzsaw has not replied |
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