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Member Posts: 3945 From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior) Joined: Member Rating: 10.0 |
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Author | Topic: Continuation of Flood Discussion | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
edge Member (Idle past 1736 days) Posts: 4696 From: Colorado, USA Joined: |
But that would of course support the Flood just fine. The only problem for the Flood would be if the dessication cracks occurred during the period of the laying down of the strata, but if they occurred from later exposure that would be expected.
When else would they occur?
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edge Member (Idle past 1736 days) Posts: 4696 From: Colorado, USA Joined:
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Why are you answering a post addressed to Coragyps which has nothing to do with my conversation with you?
It is an open board. I'm completely baffled by your approach to science and learning. Sort of a morbid fascination, I guess. My apologies to Cora.
And you are answering remarks about what the water would do with your totally irrelevant comments about sedimentation.
Is this the new last refuge of the scoundrel? Sorry, but it's all of a piece. A flood would result in sedimentation and we were discussing sedimentation. And I'm really interested in the effects of your flood.
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edge Member (Idle past 1736 days) Posts: 4696 From: Colorado, USA Joined: |
My post was specific to what Coragyps said and your response is totally irrelevant.
Are you serious? Try to focus on the topic.
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edge Member (Idle past 1736 days) Posts: 4696 From: Colorado, USA Joined: |
The topic I was discussing with Coragyps is not the topic I'm discussing with you. My post was specific to what Coragyps said and your response is totally irrelevant.
But I'm curious about what made the flood special. I would like an answer expanding on how 'things were different then'.
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edge Member (Idle past 1736 days) Posts: 4696 From: Colorado, USA Joined: |
The point I was making about the Claron had nothing to do with its elevation, the point was that it was deposited at the TOP of the stack of strata of all the "time periods" before it ... That was my point about the whole Geologic Column, that it IS found as a STACK, ...
Yes, the geological column is shown as a 'stack', at each location on the earth where we find it. Each 'stack' is different depending on the location and its particular geological history. As one location is underwater, others are undergoing erosion, others are are deserts and some are swamps. It' not all that hard to understand.
... which is what makes it a model for ascending time periods and evolution of life, so that if it is now supposedly continuing to deposit at the bottom of the sea it is no longer a continuous stack, and it certainly is no longer accumulating fossils in the line of evolution.
No, the 'stacking' simply continues elsewhere as erosion occurs at the Grand Canyon. Sedimentation does not need to be continuous at any one location or at all locations as you seem to think.
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edge Member (Idle past 1736 days) Posts: 4696 From: Colorado, USA Joined: |
Mud, silt, and sand are clastic sediments. They are fragments of pre-existing rocks. They are sorted because the coarser clasts settle out faster/closer to land, and the finer clasts get further from land. That's the short version.
These are good points. I'd like to add that I sometimes think of carbonates, such as the Chalk of western Europe as being somehow 'isolated' from siliciclastic contamination. Limestones (carbonates) and foram oozes are of biogenic origin. The forams settle out of the water above, while the limestone is created more in place. Much of the limestone "critter product" is reworked by further biogenic actions ("critters chewing on other critter's shells"). Limestone come in a number a varieties, which I'm not going to get into here. That's also the short version. Part of the reason you get limestone, is because the clastic sediments are not making it out that far from shore. Edited by edge, : No reason given. Edited by edge, : No reason given.
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edge Member (Idle past 1736 days) Posts: 4696 From: Colorado, USA Joined: |
I didn’t mention the upstream flow, but that is what would get the sediment down to the large rivers. It is really speculation, of what the water/sediment load ratio would be. I was visualizing more towards the water carrying a lot of sediment, but I’m sure that in at least some situations it would be flat out mud flow. Either would get the sediment moving down gradient, but I see the less dense and viscous flow as moving all the sediment better. The denser and viscous mud flow would leave more lag deposits behind, especially in lower gradient (less steep) areas.
Just to be clear, a lag deposit is what is left behind after the winnowing of sediments, leaving behind larger or heavier fragments. However, yes, the mudflows tend to leave behind some very interesting deposits, such as those filling valleys around Mount Saint Helens. As they flowed down the stream channels they eventually encountered more water flow and became more diluted until they formed a thin layer of light colored silt in the Columbia River delta. Different conditions in different environments, but all from the same process.
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edge Member (Idle past 1736 days) Posts: 4696 From: Colorado, USA Joined: |
Seems to me that gnudging should have had more effects on the strata of the Silurian/Devonian/Carboniferous level than seems to be the case in the GC area at least, and I don't know why that area should be an exception when you've got continents gnudging each other.
Can you give us some geological principle that says all locations must undergo tectonism or erosion or volcanism within a given time period?
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edge Member (Idle past 1736 days) Posts: 4696 From: Colorado, USA Joined: |
Sand is deposited immediately offshore in a sand environment such as a beach. It lithifies to sandstone.
I think we should focus more on the two schematic stratigraphic columns at the bottom of the diagram. What you see are two locations with different columns, both occurring at the same time; and each showing more than one depositional environment. "Siliciclastic muds" are deposited further offshore in an environment consisting mostly of the runoff from land. It lithifies to sandstone, mudstone, siltstone and shale. "Carbonate sediments" are deposited far offshore in an environment of warm quiet seas and microscopic creatures whose skeletons comprise the vast majority of the layers. It lithifies to limestone. The material in sedimentary layers comes from the environments in which those layers were deposited. In fact, the diagram shows a correlation line between the two columns showing how we compare two different sequences. Now, carry that back in time over dozens of sections and you will start to get a complete picture of the regional geological history. Obviously this diagram is a simplification of the process, but it is a real task done by stratigraphers around the world.
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edge Member (Idle past 1736 days) Posts: 4696 From: Colorado, USA Joined: |
Got to pondering this point again. Wonder if those who determine the depositional environments from the rocks, and those who made the animation of the movements of the continents, got their information coordinated.
Typically, yes. In the grand scale, things are pretty well coordinated. But it is a huge task to take every location in the world and correlate environments and plate motions, so certainly a lot is interpolated. But the point is that no global flood is indicated by the geological record. While one area may be underwater for hundreds of millions of years, others are emergent and steadily eroding away.
Or might it for instance possibly be located near the North Pole when the rock information says Tropical Sea?
That's probably a 'no'.
I kind of have a suspicion there will be discrepancies but maybe I'm wrong and they did do all the work of coordinating such information for the entire planet for all those supposed past eras. Just a thought.
Do you ever have suspicions that your interpretation of the Bible is incorrect?
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edge Member (Idle past 1736 days) Posts: 4696 From: Colorado, USA Joined: |
The latitude and rotational orientation where a rock formed on the globe is determined by the magnetization of the rock. The direction of the magnetic field leaves a trace magnetization in the rock at the time that it forms.
This would be paleomagnetism and it is fairly easy to get the inclination of the field in the appropriate rocks such as lava flows or even some sediments. The steeper the inclination the higher the latitude. I don't have actual data here, but Joe Meert used to do this kind of work.
About all the crashing and bashing you were talking about before, continental plates *do* collide. The Himalayas resulted from the collision of India with Asia. But the Grand Canyon is a long way from any plate boundaries, and it is at plate boundaries that tectonism is most active.
I wanted to emphasize this point. We can be pretty certain that the Indian subcontinent is colliding with Asia because of actual measurements. For Faith, this is called 'evidence'. We know what is happening right now to a certainty. Now, by comparison with older mountains, we can create hypotheses ... and they are supported by (drum roll) ... the evidence.
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edge Member (Idle past 1736 days) Posts: 4696 From: Colorado, USA Joined:
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Nope, not after a couple decades of reading and hearing the best exegetes thereof, those who are led by God, which a believer CAN usually tell.
Good. Then you can understand why I am comfortable with mainstream geology after studying it for several decades. It's NOT an easy subject, contrary to what many YEC websites will suggest, and we can't really get into details on a discussion boar like this.
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edge Member (Idle past 1736 days) Posts: 4696 From: Colorado, USA Joined:
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Again I don't get why not limestone since it normally gets laid down as part of the Walther's sequence simply because it's in the oceans.
You have to understand that Walther's sequence is kind of an ideal situation where there is complete transgression/regression over long periods of time. Often, the sequence is interrupted. In your scenario, the biblical flood is so rapid that it would appear to be severely distorted, with little or no time for limestone to be deposited. For instance, coral reefs should be extinct. They only occur in shallow seas with limited clastic (sand, silt, etc.) input. And we know how slowly the grow. Mainly because of what we don't see. But everything we do see is amenable to long ages and normal sedimentation.
I know you're the geologically educated one but nobody has seen a worldwide Flood, no creationists, no geologists, nobody, and what we see now WOULD have been the result of such an event if it had occurred.
So, we really have no idea what it was like, right? We would be basing our ideas on what we don't know. In the meantime we have very robust explanations for everything that we see. Why create a fantasy?
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edge Member (Idle past 1736 days) Posts: 4696 From: Colorado, USA Joined:
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I'd be a lot more troubled by any scenario that clashes with what God has revealed than anything that clashes with what mere human beings come up with, no matter how educated or sincere.
But God has revealed it to you. The record is right there in the rocks.
I see the Bible as giving at least the outline of a worldwide Flood within the last ten thousand years and the attempts others have made to conform the Bible to what geologists have come up with just don't convince me, I worry for those who would do that as a matter of fact.
Well, maybe then you should question how you interpret the Bible. Maybe you've got it all wrong and God is straining to educate you by having you participate in this discussion.
So no, I'm not troubled by contradicting geologists. I'd rather not, of course, it's not fun being at odds with those who do this work, but I don't see that I have any choice.
Your god has given you the tools and the opportunity to grow. Ultimately, you have a choice.
And as along as I'm able to visualize anything that is in the ballpark of supporting the Biblical record without outright contradicting physical laws it's both interesting and fun to do despite all the opprobrium that piles up on my head for it.
Well, you are not in the ballpark. In fact, you are not in the right continent. You have gone out of your way to deny what your own god is telling you.
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edge Member (Idle past 1736 days) Posts: 4696 From: Colorado, USA Joined:
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Sorry, the rocks do not speak ...
To me, they speak volumes.
... and everything said about them is the work of fallible human minds.
Just as is your interpretation of the Bible. But let's try to stay on topic here. Basically, you are rejecting all science, since it has all been contrived by fallible humans? That's a tough stance to come from if you really want to have a discussion.
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