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Author Topic:   Addiction By Definition
Phat
Member
Posts: 12254
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 286 of 312 (850442)
04-08-2019 4:11 AM
Reply to: Message 285 by Phat
04-08-2019 4:05 AM


Re: The Science and Theory of Addiction
I may not agree with all of your premises, but my rational mind can respect them.

What is it about the RR AVRT theory that your mind finds so illogical?

Edited by Phat, : better phrasing


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 285 by Phat, posted 04-08-2019 4:05 AM Phat has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 288 by ringo, posted 04-08-2019 11:41 AM Phat has responded

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 3437
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 5.2


(1)
Message 287 of 312 (850446)
04-08-2019 9:59 AM
Reply to: Message 278 by Porkncheese
04-05-2019 6:52 PM


Porkncheese writes:

Stile writes:

Holding a tentative position that aligns with all the available information/evidence is extremely rational.


So if an atheist tells me there is no God it would be rational for me to say there is according to your logic.

As long as you can show that God's existence aligns with all the available information/evidence - yes.
Unfortunately, we have searched for God for years and found "no God." In fact, everywhere we've been able to get a concrete answer - that answer specifically functions without the need for God.

Lightning - no God
Famine - no God
Plentiful food - no God
Love - no God
Hate - no God

Therefore, the rational position is to think that God does not exist.

It's easy to change, though - all you have to do is provide evidence that God exists. Then it would be rational to believe all the stories of "well, God just isn't there when you look for Him."

Without evidence of God's existence, though - it's rational to stick with the evidence we do have - "no God."

A tentative position would be agnostic as we don't have all the info/evidence available.

We don't have all the info/evidence for anything - but when we have a lot of info/evidence, it's rational to go with the evidence - "no God."
People have been searching for evidence of God for over thousands of years. If that's not enough info/evidence of "no God" for you - perhaps you're not being rational.

Eg. I have a beard. Do u believe me?

I don't know.
Post a picture - if you have a beard, I'll believe you. If not, I won't.

Or - let's say a vast portion of the human population diligently searched for the existence of your beard for a few thousand years - and no evidence of your beard could ever be found. And every time they found evidence - it aligned with you not having a beard (lots of pictures of you - but never a beard; your bathroom always has shavers and toiletries for getting rid of beards; your weekly garbage always has male facial hair in it.)

Do you think, then, it would be rational to believe that you didn't have a beard?

How rational would it be to believe you did have a beard in the face of such evidence?
Even if "your followers" (who actually never met you, and only started talking of you decades after your death) told conflicting stories of you having a beard? Even if there was "evidence" of you having a beard in the form of people finding pictures of you with a beard appearing in burnt toast?

I think the rational position is obvious.
Just as it is with God.

By all means, please continue this analogy where you having a beard is similar to God's existence. It provides for some very, very funny material.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 278 by Porkncheese, posted 04-05-2019 6:52 PM Porkncheese has not yet responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 16358
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 288 of 312 (850450)
04-08-2019 11:41 AM
Reply to: Message 286 by Phat
04-08-2019 4:11 AM


Re: The Science and Theory of Addiction
Phat writes:

What is it about the RR AVRT theory that your mind finds so illogical?


As I said, the "rational mind" is not always of one mind. When we "rationalize" our bad habits, it's the rational mind that's doing it, not the "animal mind".

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 286 by Phat, posted 04-08-2019 4:11 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 289 by Phat, posted 04-09-2019 7:19 AM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 12254
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 289 of 312 (850490)
04-09-2019 7:19 AM
Reply to: Message 288 by ringo
04-08-2019 11:41 AM


Re: The Science and Theory of Addiction
ringo writes:

As I said, the "rational mind" is not always of one mind. When we "rationalize" our bad habits, it's the rational mind that's doing it, not the "animal mind".

Again I ask the question. Who is "we"?

Rephrase what you just said and pretend that you are saying it to yourself. after all, there is only one ringo. Thus your sentence should read:

quote:
As I said, the "rational mind" is not always of one mind. When I "rationalize" my bad habits, it's the rational mind that's doing it, not the "animal mind".
The next question would then be "Why am I allowing my rational mind to allow me to drink excessively? (for example) Note the excuses that come up in your internal dialogue. We will then discuss what you found.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 288 by ringo, posted 04-08-2019 11:41 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 290 by ringo, posted 04-09-2019 11:54 AM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 16358
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 290 of 312 (850494)
04-09-2019 11:54 AM
Reply to: Message 289 by Phat
04-09-2019 7:19 AM


Re: The Science and Theory of Addiction
Phat writes:

Again I ask the question. Who is "we"?


Don't be cute. "We" means "we". We all have the same brain functions.

Phat writes:

Rephrase what you just said and pretend that you are saying it to yourself.


No need. "We" already includes me.

Phat writes:

The next question would then be "Why am I allowing my rational mind to allow me to drink excessively? (for example)....


You answer that question. How can we "allow" our rational mind to "allow" something? It's because our rational mind has two different opinions:
1. Drinking, etc. is bad for me.
2. One little drink is not going to hurt me.
And both opinions are right.

Phat writes:

Note the excuses that come up in your internal dialogue.

There can not be an "internal dialogue" unless there are two (or more) rational entities to hold the dialogue.

Your attempt to blame bad decisions on a "Beast" is the same as saying, "the Devil made me do it." The fact is that they are decisions and decisions are rational.


And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 289 by Phat, posted 04-09-2019 7:19 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 291 by Phat, posted 04-09-2019 2:22 PM ringo has responded
 Message 296 by Phat, posted 04-10-2019 5:19 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 12254
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 291 of 312 (850503)
04-09-2019 2:22 PM
Reply to: Message 290 by ringo
04-09-2019 11:54 AM


Re: The Science and Theory of Addiction
How can we "allow" our rational mind to "allow" something? It's because our rational mind has two different opinions:
1. Drinking, etc. is bad for me.
2. One little drink is not going to hurt me.
And both opinions are right.

Scripture disagrees.

quote:
DOUBLE-MINDED

dipsuchos NT:1374 lit. means "twosouled" (dis, "twice," psuche, "a soul"), hence, "double-minded," James 1:8; 4:8.
(from Vine's Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words, Copyright (c)1985, Thomas Nelson Publishers)

James 1:2-8 NKJV
My brethren, count it all joy when you fall into various trials, 3 knowing that the testing of your faith produces patience. 4 But let patience have its perfect work, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking nothing. 5 If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all liberally and without reproach, and it will be given to him. 6 But let him ask in faith, with no doubting, for he who doubts is like a wave of the sea driven and tossed by the wind. 7 For let not that man suppose that he will receive anything from the Lord; 8 he is a double-minded man, unstable in all his ways.

James 4:7-10
8 Draw near to God and He will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double-minded. 9 Lament and mourn and weep! Let your laughter be turned to mourning and your joy to gloom. 10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and He will lift you up.
NKJV


Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 290 by ringo, posted 04-09-2019 11:54 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 292 by ringo, posted 04-09-2019 10:35 PM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 16358
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 292 of 312 (850517)
04-09-2019 10:35 PM
Reply to: Message 291 by Phat
04-09-2019 2:22 PM


Re: The Science and Theory of Addiction
Phat writes:

Scripture disagrees.


No it doesn't. Both minds are rational.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 291 by Phat, posted 04-09-2019 2:22 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 293 by Phat, posted 04-10-2019 11:19 AM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 12254
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 293 of 312 (850543)
04-10-2019 11:19 AM
Reply to: Message 292 by ringo
04-09-2019 10:35 PM


Re: The Science and Theory of Addiction
I think you like to argue with yourself, yet you end up agreeing.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 292 by ringo, posted 04-09-2019 10:35 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 294 by ringo, posted 04-10-2019 12:18 PM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 16358
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.5


(1)
Message 294 of 312 (850545)
04-10-2019 12:18 PM
Reply to: Message 293 by Phat
04-10-2019 11:19 AM


Re: The Science and Theory of Addiction
Phat writes:

I think you like to argue with yourself, yet you end up agreeing.


But I'm not agreeing with you. I'm pointing out that the scripture you quoted agrees with me and disagrees with you.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 293 by Phat, posted 04-10-2019 11:19 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 295 by Phat, posted 04-10-2019 5:11 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 12254
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 295 of 312 (850583)
04-10-2019 5:11 PM
Reply to: Message 294 by ringo
04-10-2019 12:18 PM


Re: The Science and Theory of Addiction
I would argue that the scripture clearly says that having (or holding) two minds (or two opinions) at the same time makes one unstable.

But my point was that this whole nonsense of having two different minds which agree sounds more like Leviathan than any rational human I know.

Of course, to be fair, your argument about differing minds agreeing sounds a bit like the consensus of politics. I would in fact agree that some politicians have a reptilian beast mind. They could care less about rationality.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 294 by ringo, posted 04-10-2019 12:18 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 297 by ringo, posted 04-10-2019 5:34 PM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 12254
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 296 of 312 (850585)
04-10-2019 5:19 PM
Reply to: Message 290 by ringo
04-09-2019 11:54 AM


Re: The Science and Theory of Addiction
Lets get deeper.
ringo writes:

How can we "allow" our rational mind to "allow" something? It's because our rational mind has two different opinions:
1. Drinking etc. is bad for me.
2. One little drink is not going to hurt me.
And both opinions are right.

I would tell the emotionally immature brain cells that while it may be true that they promise one little drink, evidence shows that it often leads to 3, 4, or even 5 drinks. Given that new information, can both opinions still be rational?

Keep in mind that RR theory states that the Addictive Voice will lie to you in order to have its way.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 290 by ringo, posted 04-09-2019 11:54 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 298 by ringo, posted 04-10-2019 5:40 PM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 16358
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 297 of 312 (850586)
04-10-2019 5:34 PM
Reply to: Message 295 by Phat
04-10-2019 5:11 PM


Re: The Science and Theory of Addiction
Phat writes:

I would argue that the scripture clearly says that having (or holding) two minds (or two opinions) at the same time makes one unstable.


Of course. But the point is not about the consequences. It's that a rational mind doesn't arrive one and only one opinion.

Phat writes:

But my point was that this whole nonsense of having two different minds which agree...


Who said they agree? The whole point is that they don't agree.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 295 by Phat, posted 04-10-2019 5:11 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 300 by Phat, posted 04-12-2019 9:40 AM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 16358
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 298 of 312 (850587)
04-10-2019 5:40 PM
Reply to: Message 296 by Phat
04-10-2019 5:19 PM


Re: The Science and Theory of Addiction
Phat writes:

I would tell the emotionally immature brain cells that while it may be true that they promise one little drink, evidence shows that it often leads to 3, 4, or even 5 drinks. Given that new information, can both opinions still be rational?


You're confusing rational with correct. A rational thought process doesn't necessarily produce The Right Answer. In fact, there often is no "right answer".

Phat writes:

Keep in mind that RR theory states that the Addictive Voice will lie to you in order to have its way.


How can you lie if you're not rational?

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 296 by Phat, posted 04-10-2019 5:19 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 299 by Phat, posted 04-11-2019 4:20 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 12254
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 299 of 312 (850668)
04-11-2019 4:20 PM
Reply to: Message 298 by ringo
04-10-2019 5:40 PM


Re: The Science and Theory of Addiction
How can you lie if you're not rational?
Precisely!

Next question...have you ever lied to yourself in order to rationalize an irrational behavior?


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 298 by ringo, posted 04-10-2019 5:40 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 303 by ringo, posted 04-12-2019 11:38 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 12254
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 300 of 312 (850681)
04-12-2019 9:40 AM
Reply to: Message 297 by ringo
04-10-2019 5:34 PM


Re: The Science and Theory of Addiction
ringo writes:

There can not be an "internal dialogue" unless there are two (or more) rational entities to hold the dialogue.


Lets define terms.
Google Dictionary=Rational writes:


(1)based on or in accordance with reason or logic.
(of a person) able to think clearly, sensibly, and logically.
sane in one's right mind able to think/reason clearly of sound mind in possession of all one's faculties ( normal balanced well balanced clearheaded compos mentis all there)
(2)endowed with the capacity to reason.
(3)intelligent thinking discriminating reasoning cognitive mental cerebral logical analytical conceptual ratiocinative

ringo writes:

Your attempt to blame bad decisions on a "Beast" is the same as saying, "the Devil made me do it." The fact is that they are decisions and decisions are rational.

I disagree. Not every decision that I make is rational. Some decisions are impulsive. Some decisions are fantasy based. Of the latter two, I would argue that they were driven by wishes and desires rather than by logic or rationality. The devil never makes anyone do anything, but he is quite good at mimicking my own rational voice.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 297 by ringo, posted 04-10-2019 5:34 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 301 by Stile, posted 04-12-2019 10:00 AM Phat has responded
 Message 304 by ringo, posted 04-12-2019 11:43 AM Phat has responded

  
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