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Author Topic:   A Creationist Sues the Grand Canyon for Religious Discrimination
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1521 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 12 of 99 (809334)
05-17-2017 8:14 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Coyote
05-17-2017 6:46 PM


Re: Flood disproved
That flood nonsense was studied and disproved over 200 years ago.
Leonardo da Vinci figured out in the late 1400's that no world wide flood had occurred.
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This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by Faith, posted 05-17-2017 8:16 PM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1521 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 18 of 99 (809371)
05-18-2017 7:22 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by Faith
05-17-2017 8:16 PM


Re: Flood disproved
And what, pray tell, was Leonardo's reasoning for rejecting the Flood?
Leonardo da Vinci (1452-1519)
quote:
Leonardo knew well the rocks and fossils (mostly Cenozoic mollusks) found in his native north Italy. No doubt he had ample opportunity to observe them during his service as an engineer and artist at the court of Lodovico Sforza, Duke of Milan, from 1482 to 1499: Vasari wrote that "Leonardo was frequently occupied in the preparation of plans to remove mountains or to pierce them with tunnels from plain to plain." He made many observations on mountains and rivers, and he grasped the principle that rocks can be formed by deposition of sediments by water, while at the same time the rivers erode rocks and carry their sediments to the sea, in a continuous grand cycle. He wrote: "The stratified stones of the mountains are all layers of clay, deposited one above the other by the various floods of the rivers. . . In every concavity at the summit of the mountains we shall always find the divisions of strata in the rocks." Leonardo appear to have grasped the law of superposition, which would later be articulated fully by the Danish scientist Nicolaus Steno in 1669: in any sequence of sedimentary rocks, the oldest rocks are those at the base. He also appears to have noticed that distinct layers of rocks and fossils could be traced over long distances, and that these layers were formed at different times: ". . . the shells in Lombardy are at four levels, and thus it is everywhere, having been made at various times." Nearly three hundred years later, the rediscovery and elaboration of these principles would make possible modern stratigraphy and geological mapping.
In Leonardo's day there were several hypotheses of how it was that shells and other living creatures were found in rocks on the tops of mountans. Some believed the shells to have been carried there by the Biblical Flood; others thought that these shells had grown in the rocks. Leonardo had no patience with either hypothesis, and refuted both using his careful observations. Concerning the second hypothesis, he wrote that "such an opinion cannot exist in a brain of much reason; because here are the years of their growth, numbered on their shells, and there are large and small ones to be seen which could not have grown without food, and could not have fed without motion -- and here they could not move." There was every sign that these shells had once been living organisms. What about the Great Flood mentioned in the Bible? Leonardo doubted the existence of a single worldwide flood, noting that there would have been no place for the water to go when it receded. He also noted that "if the shells had been carried by the muddy deluge they would have been mixed up, and separated from each other amidst the mud, and not in regular steps and layers -- as we see them now in our time." He noted that rain falling on mountains rushed downhill, not uphill, and suggested that any Great Flood would have carried fossils away from the land, not towards it. He described sessile fossils such as oysters and corals, and considered it impossible that one flood could have carried them 300 miles inland, or that they could have crawled 300 miles in the forty days and nights of the Biblical flood.
Modern geologists have made similar observations over the whole world. Once again it is the spacial-temporal matrix that provides the detailed evidence for the natural history of the earth.
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Faith, posted 05-17-2017 8:16 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by Faith, posted 05-18-2017 10:24 AM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1521 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(1)
Message 53 of 99 (809477)
05-18-2017 1:06 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Faith
05-18-2017 10:24 AM


Re: Leonardo's unbiblical guesses
You are welcome Faith.
You of course twisted the information to fit your fantasy world. Curiously it doesn't change reality.
I expected nothing else.
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1521 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(1)
Message 89 of 99 (809595)
05-19-2017 11:46 AM
Reply to: Message 88 by Faith
05-19-2017 11:14 AM


foraminifera, in layers, in the ocean, for over 540 million years
Nobody ever shows the strata at the bottom of the oceans of course though it keeps being pushed as the ongoing site of the same kind of sedimentation as the geological column. Of course it's not and couldn't possibly be. Flat layers of sediments, extensive without encountering obstacles, no, not possible. Compare to walls of Grand Canyon. The geological column is over and done with, a product of the Flood.
Sorry Faith, but wrong again.
foraminifera, in layers, in the ocean, for over 540 million years.
quote:
FORAM FACTS AN
INTRODUCTION TO FORAMINIFERA
Foraminifera (forams for short) are single-celled organisms (protists) with shells or tests (a technical term for internal shells). They are abundant as fossils for the last 540 million years. The shells are commonly divided into chambers that are added during growth, though the simplest forms are open tubes or hollow spheres. Depending on the species, the shell may be made of organic compounds, sand grains or other particles cemented together, or crystalline CaCO3 (calcite or aragonite).
There are an estimated 4,000 species living in the world's oceans today. Of these, 40 species are planktonic, that is they float in the water. The remainder live on or in the sand, mud, rocks and plants at the bottom of the ocean. Foraminifera are found in all marine environments, from the intertidal to the deepest ocean trenches, and from the tropics to the poles, but species of foraminifera can be very particular about the environmentin which they live. Some are abundant only in the deep ocean, others are found only on coral reefs, and still other species live only in brackish estuaries or intertidal salt marshes.
Foraminifera provide evidence of the relative ages of marine rocks
There are several resons that fossil foraminifera are especially valuable for determining the relative ages of marine rock layers. They have been around since the Cambrian, over 500 million years ago. They show fairly continuous evolutionary development, so different species are found at different times. Forams are abundant and widespread, being found in all marine environments. Finally, they are small and easy to collect, even from deep oil wells.
Some species are geologically short-lived and some forms are only found in specific environments. Therefore, a paleontologist can examine the specimens in a small rock sample like those recovered during the drilling of oil wells and determine the geologic age and environment when the rock formed. As a result, since the 1920's the oil industry has been an important employer of paleontologists who specialize in these microscopic fossils. Stratigraphic control using foraminifera is so precise that these fossils are even used to direct sideways drilling within an oil-bearing horizon to increase well productivity.

Pretty little things. Set in the spacial-temporal matrix in the seabed, they identify different ages for the sedimentary deposits they are found buried in.
quote:
The Foram Fossils, a Classic Tale of Transition
Drs. Tony Arnold (Ph.D., Harvard) and Bill Parker (Ph.D., Chicago) are the developers of what reportedly is the largest, most complete set of data ever compiled on the evolutionary history of an organism. The two scientists have painstakingly pieced together a virtually unbroken fossil record that shows in stunning detail how a single-celled marine organism has evolved during the past 66 million years. Apparently, it's the only fossil record known to science that has no obvious gaps -- no "missing links."
"It's all here -- a complete record," says Arnold. "There are other good examples, but this is by far the best. We're seeing the whole picture of how this organism has changed throughout most of its existence on Earth."
But it's the planktonic variety that chiefly interests Parker and Arnold. Unlike their oversized cousins, free-swimming forams are found wherever the oceans have, or had, currents -- in a word, everywhere. For nearly a century, geologists have used the animals' tiny, fossilized shells, found in abundance in marine and some terrestrial deposits, to help establish the age of sediments and to gain insight into prehistoric climates.
"This is the same organism, as it existed through 500,000 years," Arnold said. "We've got hundreds of examples like this, complete life and evolutionary histories for dozens of species."
The exhaustive species collection also is exceptionally well-preserved, which accounts largely for the excitement shared by Parker and Arnold. "Most fossils, particularly those of the vertebrates, are fragmented -- just odds and ends," Parker said. "But these fossils are almost perfectly preserved, despite being millions of years old. We have the whole creature, minus the protoplasm."
One of the last great extinctions occurred roughly 66 million years ago, and according to one popular theory it resulted from Earth's receiving a direct hit from a large asteroid. Whatever the cause, the event proved to be the dinosaurs' coup de grace, and also wiped out a good portion of Earth's marine life -- including almost all species of planktonic forams.
Some scientists have theorized, but never been able to demonstrate, that in the absence of competition, an explosion of life takes place. The evolution of new species is greatly accelerated, and a profusion of body shapes and sizes bursts across the horizon, filling up vacant spaces like weeds overtaking a pristine lawn. An array of new forms fan out into these limited niches, where crowding soon forces most of the new forms to spin out into oblivion, as sparks from a flame.
As foram survivors rush to occupy their new habitats, they seem to start experimenting will all sorts of body shapes, trying to find something stable, something that will work, Arnold said. Once a population in a given habitat develops a shape or other characteristic that stands up to the environment, suddenly the organisms begin to coalesce around what becomes a standardized form, the signature of a new species.
As the available niches begin to fill up with these new creatures, the speciation rate begins to slow down, and pressure from competition between species appears to bear down in earnest. The extinction rate then rises accordingly.
Speciation and transitions mapped against time for the layered deposits.
Not the Grand Canyon, so not topical for further comment.
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by Faith, posted 05-19-2017 11:14 AM Faith has not replied

  
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