Religion or Science - How do they compare?

No, He gives whomever he wills the ability to choose salvation, to believe the gospel, He regenerates these, gives them the new birth, but otherwise we follow our own fallen nature, which cannot choose such things.

Yes we cannot refuse it and for those of us who have received it that is immense rassurance though you make it sound like some kind of deterministic trap. No, when I was first saved I was often afraid my own stupidity could lead me away from God again, since I'd lived without Him for decades already, so the knowledge that I couldn't lose it was immensely comforting. I actually prayed that He wouldn't let me lose my belief in Him. I've always had the sense of having a free will that can make horrible choices because I've made so many in my life. You seem to be picturing some kind of robot-like existence even though you don't experience such a thing and neither do I. You are getting too caught up in a distorted theological theory.

No it isn't the doctrine's fault, it is the usual problem that our fallen nature distorts it. That is really why we shouldn't even try to discuss it on a forum like this, but of course it keeps coming up and has to be discussed, and since I believe it is the most biblical doctrine that truly honors God I always have to try to defend it. Arminianism makes God weak and passive and directly violates the biblical theme of salvation by grace alone, giving power to human beings to choose which means giving us the credit that is due only to God. So I always have to try to defend Calvinism though it is a doctrine none of us can really grasp and that includes me.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

I think most of this is resolved by understanding that there are two natures involved, the fallen sin nature which we are all born into, which lacks the spiritual life of Adam and Eve because they lost it through disobedience which is the Fall, and the restoration or regeneration of our spirits, or being born again, which is the beginning of eternal life.In our fallen condition we are incapable of exercising faith, that ability has to be understood as the product of regeneration which is given by God to us on account of Christ's death for us. This is what salvation really is, the regeneration of our spirits which were "dead" due to the Fall. In our fallen state we have the "spiritual" capacity to be in touch with demons unfortunately, but not with God -- that requires the regeneration through the Holy Spirit which was earned for us by Christ's death on the cross. So when people talk about "accepting Jesus into your heart" they are talking about something that can only really be done by a regenerated spirit.Yes sin or the violation of God's commandments (to love God, not commit idolatry or worship idols or images, to honor parents, not to lie, steal, covet, commit murder or adultery), is our normal fallen condition. When we are regenerated through the new birth and our spirit is "quickened" --or made alive or regenerated-- we begin to be able to have communication with God and to love His commandments and try to obey them.We have to grow into this, when we are born again we are truly spiritual babies that have to grow in the faith through spiritual experience. We are told to "walk in the Spirit" which implies we may instead walk in the flesh, and unfortunately we often do. We won't be fully free of the fleshly fallen nature and our inborn tendency to sin until we die into the new life.Calvinism accounts for our natural inborn fallen condition in terms of "total depravity" which really refers to our being dead to the things of the spirit, To become open to the things of the spirit means regeneration or the new birth which occurs when we believe in Christ.In our fallen state we are still the image of God and have a conscience and moral sense though it's imperfect. This is something I think does need to be understood as a matter of the regeneration of the spirit, which is what makes it possible for us to believe and to obey. The problem is that the way it is put is in terms of the fallen nature, and it is true that we can't believe or do anything for our salvation in that condition, so God does it all. But when we ARE regenerated then we can believe, have faith, have communication with God, obey God, and so on, but it is still all done through Him and in His power.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

I forget the context but I remember saying two things about our being interested in salvation, that it could come from God which implies a regenerated spirit even though the person may not be aware of it, which I think was true of me when I began to read about God on my way to becoming a Christian a couple years later. So being interested in the things of Christ may be the first step of genuine regenerated faith, But I was also considering that maybe it can be an interest of the fallen nature that in itself can't lead to salvation. I'm not completely sure even this much interest is possible without some spiritual regeneration but I say it because I know some Chrisians are actually not saved, which some discover after many years of churchgoing and then seek the new birth and receive it. We may be talking about degrees of spiritual life but I don't know.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Yes I believe salvation is the foundation of it all and there is plenty of scripture for that I can track down if necessary. As I've been saying the whole point of Christ's sacrifice was to restore to us what was lost at the Fall, primarily communication with God, but also a whole host of moral and intellectual capacities we lost, and even physical capacities I believe. Without that regeneration we may make a "good show in the flesh" with good deeds of many sorts, but can never become conformed to Christ.

God definitely responds to our desires if we appeal to Him to do so. We can't drum up the faith for salvation, that requires His regenerating us, but we can have desires and if we present them to Him He will answer. I'm not getting this. WHAT "has to stop somewhere?" Where is it said that Calvinism means "God does not allow" salvation? It's always put as a positive: God brings about salvation, otherwise people are simply in their fallen condition. Although I've said there can be a purely fleshly interest in salvation, because I know some Christians are not saved, I don't really know if this is the right way to put it. Generally it seems to me that if there is even a flicker of interest in salvation, that is from God. In any case I KNOW that if someone asks God for understanding of these things, for greater interest, for salvation itself, He will give it. There is no active REJECTION of anyone who comes to Him in such a way, that's not in Calvinism at all. As Jesus said, Anyone who comes to Me I will not cast out. Anyone who has enough interest to ask God to illuminate these things, assuming of course a sincere desire to know and not just game-playing mockery, He WILL answer.

If He will answer your prayer He will grant you salvation.

I wonder if you heard the sermon by Bishop Curry at the Royal Wedding of Harry and Meghan last month. It was a very popular sermon and I'd guess one you would agree with. I only heard maybe a third of it though I did intend to hear more eventually. Basically he seemed to be saying something like "Love is nice, wouldn't it be nice if the world had more love in it."Then I started finding Christians who objected to it as not a truly Christian message, and wrote objections to it which I agree with. One Gavin Ashenden called it "Christianity Lite" and said this: I think it fits your views. What do you think?Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Anyone who has an interest, or a desire, toward salvation, which is what I thought you were saying, is earmarked for salvatio. Those who aren't never show any interest. That could change but until it does they don't seek it and won't find it.

Well, no, it doesn't say that. What it says is that you can do nothing to earn your salvation, your good deeds don't earn it, and you can't claim any credit for it. "It is by grace ye are saved and that not of yourselves, lest any man should boast.' There are some signs of salvation, such as beliefs or desires, but those were given by God, not something you take credit for. If you have a saving belief in Christ's death for your sins then you are saved, but God gave you that belief, you can't take credit for it. But having a genuine interest, a desire, is a sign that you are chosen. God does not turn away anyone who has such desires.This idea that someone who truly desires salvation would be turned away is totally wrong. Such a desire is a clue that you are saved. Such feelings can be ephemeral or insincere but i'm talking about the real ones.Those who are predestined will have these desires and signs, those who aren't won't show any interest.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Most of those would show no interest or desire for it at all, and any who seem to wouldn't really have that desire, just maybe a fleeting interest.We're all born blind to the things of God, unable to choose salvation or any other things of God. A genuine saving interest in salvation would be a gifrt of God and anyone who has that gift would be saved because salvation is basically regeneration, having a new nature given by God. There may be fleshly inclinations toward the things of God but the flesh is dead and can't inherit eternal life, you have to be born again and if you are born again and have genuinely spiritual inclinations you are certainly saved..Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

No, if anyone actually prays to God in sincerity God will answer. He may even respond to the insincere. King Saul prophesied by God for a short time although he was not a genuine believer.There are degrees and shades of what we are talking about and I'm answering as if it were black and white, and on that level if you have the desires, if you pray, that's a SIGN you are God's. Godly attitudes can be false in many ways but I'm assuming we're talking about true ones. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Yes that means you cannot do anything to earn salvation, there are no conditions you could meet that would make you a candidate for salvation, ti's entirely God's own unconditional choice completely independent of any qualities in the person, any merit, any goodness etc, He chooses whomever He chooses for reasons entirely His own that we can't know about.But you were saying something different: that "it doesn't matter what you believe or feel" you are predestined or not in any case, but that's not what the above is saying. If someone actually has a belief consistent with salvation then that person is saved, etc. All the above is saying is that there is nothing in our own characters that can earn it, it's NOT saying that even if we have genuine feelings for God we could be cast out by God. Again, Jesus said "Whoever comes unto me I will not cast out." If we have such feelings they are given to us BY God and that is a sign of our salvation.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

But you are confusing separate things here and I don't know how to make that clear to you.