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Author Topic:   Christianity and the End Times
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7068
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


(1)
Message 1651 of 1748 (848505)
02-08-2019 5:53 AM
Reply to: Message 1649 by Thugpreacha
02-07-2019 6:02 PM


Re: Origins Of Reality
Phat writes:

Why cannot there be an idea before a human mind defines it? Why must ideas be contained only in human minds?

Because ideas can only exist in physical minds. They're not freefloating entities that we can trap and use. If you think they are you're going to have explain how and where.

I'm pretty sure I seen monkeys have ideas too. They get the lightbulb look.

One day machines might be able to have ideas and if we ever find any, ET too. But it takes a physical thing to have a thought.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1649 by Thugpreacha, posted 02-07-2019 6:02 PM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17292
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 1652 of 1748 (848515)
02-08-2019 10:52 AM
Reply to: Message 1649 by Thugpreacha
02-07-2019 6:02 PM


Re: Origins Of Reality
Phat writes:

Quit being so afraid of speculating on WHO or WHAT "did it".


The one who is afraid is you - afraid of letting go of your fixed idea of God. If we did find an entity that was completely different from your pet god, most of us would be more willing to accept it than you would.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1649 by Thugpreacha, posted 02-07-2019 6:02 PM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1653 by Thugpreacha, posted 02-08-2019 12:38 PM ringo has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12805
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1653 of 1748 (848519)
02-08-2019 12:38 PM
Reply to: Message 1652 by ringo
02-08-2019 10:52 AM


Re: Origins Of Reality
ringo writes:

The one who is afraid is you - afraid of letting go of your fixed idea of God. If we did find an entity that was completely different from your pet god, most of us would be more willing to accept it than you would.

My "pet" God is rational. Certainly not limited to the one you compile from the book. Certainly not a mere Loki, or Bigfoot, or some other human creation.

Basically an initial Creator of all seen and unseen. A source for the fodder for Big Bangs. An initial source. An eternal conduit of creativity and encouragement. A validation that human minds are not all that we have to bank on. An insurance policy of Hope for an uncertain future with fallible humans likely to blow themselves up if left to their own instincts.

Why must your qualification for acceptance hinge on something different from that? I suspect it will be because you discovered and defined it rather than it defining you.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1652 by ringo, posted 02-08-2019 10:52 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1654 by ringo, posted 02-08-2019 12:53 PM Thugpreacha has responded
 Message 1655 by Tangle, posted 02-08-2019 1:02 PM Thugpreacha has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17292
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 1654 of 1748 (848520)
02-08-2019 12:53 PM
Reply to: Message 1653 by Thugpreacha
02-08-2019 12:38 PM


Re: Origins Of Reality
Phat writes:

My "pet" God is rational.


How can you call it rational when you can't provide reasons for its irrational behaviour?

Phat writes:

Certainly not limited to the one you compile from the book.


Again, the book is the only source you have. Everything else is made up.

Phat writes:

Basically an initial Creator of all seen and unseen. A source for the fodder for Big Bangs. An initial source. An eternal conduit of creativity and encouragement. A validation that human minds are not all that we have to bank on. An insurance policy of Hope for an uncertain future with fallible humans likely to blow themselves up if left to their own instincts.


How is any of that rational?

Phat writes:

Why must your qualification for acceptance hinge on something different from that? I suspect it will be because you discovered and defined it rather than it defining you.


"It defining you" is the epitome of irrationality.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1653 by Thugpreacha, posted 02-08-2019 12:38 PM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1656 by Thugpreacha, posted 02-08-2019 1:03 PM ringo has responded
 Message 1658 by Thugpreacha, posted 02-08-2019 1:10 PM ringo has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7068
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


(1)
Message 1655 of 1748 (848521)
02-08-2019 1:02 PM
Reply to: Message 1653 by Thugpreacha
02-08-2019 12:38 PM


Re: Origins Of Reality
Phat writes:

Basically an initial Creator of all seen and unseen. A source for the fodder for Big Bangs. An initial source. An eternal conduit of creativity and encouragement.

That's basic theism

A validation that human minds are not all that we have to bank on. An insurance policy of Hope for an uncertain future with fallible humans likely to blow themselves up if left to their own instincts.

And that's wishful thinking.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1653 by Thugpreacha, posted 02-08-2019 12:38 PM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1657 by Thugpreacha, posted 02-08-2019 1:05 PM Tangle has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12805
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1656 of 1748 (848522)
02-08-2019 1:03 PM
Reply to: Message 1654 by ringo
02-08-2019 12:53 PM


Re: Origins Of Reality
Tangle writes:

...ideas can only exist in physical minds. They're not free-floating entities that we can trap and use. (...)it takes a physical thing to have a thought.

This explains why its easier for science to believe that in the beginning, matter reacted rather than an idea or thought to be the initial cause. Science has conditioned you to always require the physical before the mental.

How would I be able to show you otherwise? That would be Gods job.

ringo writes:

"It defining you" is the epitome of irrationality.

Are you suggesting that "you defining it" is more rational? How can a "you" that existed in the last seconds of Carl Sagan's cosmic calendar define the other 365 days and 83,520 seconds? Why does the definition emerge in the last seconds of a cosmic year calendar than it would in the first second?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1654 by ringo, posted 02-08-2019 12:53 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1659 by ringo, posted 02-08-2019 1:14 PM Thugpreacha has responded
 Message 1662 by Tangle, posted 02-08-2019 1:18 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12805
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1657 of 1748 (848523)
02-08-2019 1:05 PM
Reply to: Message 1655 by Tangle
02-08-2019 1:02 PM


Re: Origins Of Reality
Tangle writes:

And that's wishful thinking.

So in essence, the beginning of modern science and wisdom used in defining the universe and all that is seen and unseen didn't start until humans evolved enough to begin our cognitive processes?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1655 by Tangle, posted 02-08-2019 1:02 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1665 by Tangle, posted 02-08-2019 1:28 PM Thugpreacha has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12805
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1658 of 1748 (848525)
02-08-2019 1:10 PM
Reply to: Message 1654 by ringo
02-08-2019 12:53 PM


Re: Origins Of Reality
ringo writes:

Again, the book is the only source you have. Everything else is made up.

Are you thus arguing that the book is *not* made up?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1654 by ringo, posted 02-08-2019 12:53 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1661 by ringo, posted 02-08-2019 1:17 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17292
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 1659 of 1748 (848526)
02-08-2019 1:14 PM
Reply to: Message 1656 by Thugpreacha
02-08-2019 1:03 PM


Re: Origins Of Reality
Phat writes:

ringo writes:

"It defining you" is the epitome of irrationality.


Are you suggesting that "you defining it" is more rational?

Of course. Humans are the only things in the universe known to define anything.

Phat writes:

Why does the definition emerge in the last seconds of a cosmic year calendar than it would in the first second?


Because a definition is - by definition - something that humans use to describe a human idea.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1656 by Thugpreacha, posted 02-08-2019 1:03 PM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1660 by Thugpreacha, posted 02-08-2019 1:16 PM ringo has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12805
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1660 of 1748 (848527)
02-08-2019 1:16 PM
Reply to: Message 1659 by ringo
02-08-2019 1:14 PM


Re: Origins Of Reality
Are there any ideas that are not human ideas?

Is reality a human idea?

Are we to conclude that anything a human cannot define or describe does not exist for all practical purposes?


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1659 by ringo, posted 02-08-2019 1:14 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1663 by ringo, posted 02-08-2019 1:23 PM Thugpreacha has responded
 Message 1669 by AZPaul3, posted 02-08-2019 10:08 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17292
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 1661 of 1748 (848528)
02-08-2019 1:17 PM
Reply to: Message 1658 by Thugpreacha
02-08-2019 1:10 PM


Re: Origins Of Reality
Phat writes:

Are you thus arguing that the book is *not* made up?


Of course the book is made up - but at least it's stable. What you make up is strictly ad hoc. You make up a touchy-feely God and then try to link it somehow with the Jesus who IS in the book.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1658 by Thugpreacha, posted 02-08-2019 1:10 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7068
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 1662 of 1748 (848529)
02-08-2019 1:18 PM
Reply to: Message 1656 by Thugpreacha
02-08-2019 1:03 PM


Re: Origins Of Reality
Phat writes:

This explains why its easier for science to believe that in the beginning, matter reacted rather than an idea or thought to be the initial cause.

How many times Phat?? Science doesn't believe anything. It forms conclusions from evidence.

Science has conditioned you to always require the physical before the mental.

Sciences studies both the 'mental' and the physical. It's able to do this because the 'mental' is physical. The 'mental' happens inside a physical organ called the brain. Did you have somewhere else in mind (sic) for this idea to exist?

How would I be able to show you otherwise? That would be Gods job.

Right, You know it exists but sadly it's invisible and leaves no physical trace.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1656 by Thugpreacha, posted 02-08-2019 1:03 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17292
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 1663 of 1748 (848531)
02-08-2019 1:23 PM
Reply to: Message 1660 by Thugpreacha
02-08-2019 1:16 PM


Re: Origins Of Reality
Phat writes:

Are there any ideas that are not human ideas?


We've been through that already. Are there any paintings that are not made of paint?

Phat writes:

Is reality a human idea?


Reality is what it is regardless of any human ideas about it.

Phat writes:

Are we to conclude that anything a human cannot define or describe does not exist for all practical purposes?


"For all practical purposes", certainly. Try walking into a store and asking for something that you can't define or describe.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1660 by Thugpreacha, posted 02-08-2019 1:16 PM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1664 by Thugpreacha, posted 02-08-2019 1:27 PM ringo has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12805
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1664 of 1748 (848532)
02-08-2019 1:27 PM
Reply to: Message 1663 by ringo
02-08-2019 1:23 PM


Re: Origins Of Reality
ringo writes:

What you make up is strictly ad hoc.


OK, lets go back to The History Of Our World In 18 Minutes which is a made up concept known as Big History.
The author concludes that "the universe" creates its own complexity. How is this not also ad hoc?

Reality is what it is regardless of any human ideas about it.
Cant argue with you there.

Are there any paintings that are not made of paint?
Are there any universes that *may* exist that we cannot yet define or describe?

If we correlate the word paint to the word idea, we thus hypothetically have possible universes, multiverses, or dare i say Gods that exist as ideas not yet defined.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1663 by ringo, posted 02-08-2019 1:23 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1667 by ringo, posted 02-08-2019 1:39 PM Thugpreacha has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7068
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 1665 of 1748 (848533)
02-08-2019 1:28 PM
Reply to: Message 1657 by Thugpreacha
02-08-2019 1:05 PM


Re: Origins Of Reality
Phat writes:

So in essence, the beginning of modern science and wisdom used in defining the universe and all that is seen and unseen didn't start until humans evolved enough to begin our cognitive processes?

In as much as I can understand that, defining and understanding the universe couldn't have started until we obtained the conscious ability to do it. Surely that is obvious?

We started the process by making up stories to 'explain' things - hence your current beliefs. Science continues this process but in a rational way, based on observation and objective testing in order to separate the real from the imaginary.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1657 by Thugpreacha, posted 02-08-2019 1:05 PM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1666 by Thugpreacha, posted 02-08-2019 1:32 PM Tangle has responded

  
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