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Author Topic:   Christianity and the End Times
Phat
Member
Posts: 12043
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 1636 of 1673 (848384)
02-04-2019 7:52 AM
Reply to: Message 1631 by AZPaul3
02-03-2019 5:54 PM


Origins Of Reality
Yours Truly writes:

Words were words in the beginning...even before humans could so much as utter syllables. Words exist to express ideas long before the "messenger" grows enough to express them.


AZPaul3 writes:

Sorry. No.
"Word" or words don't exist outside the human who conjures them up until she speaks them.(...)no human, no word. Not even the idea of word.

Lets go with this for a moment... OK What about math? physics? Did they exist without humans? Did not the formulas exist before someone evolved enough to chart them out on a chalkboard? The whole concept of chance(spoken of in my signature) formulated into probability based on statistics, weights, distances, and behaviors of elements? My point is that you likely will say that the processes existed and later humans evolved the intelligence to explain them. If so, why cannot an idea exist before a human comes up with the words to express a said idea? Why must God have been defined by humans? Why could not God as an idea have existed long before humans evolved to the primitive levels with which to attempt to describe Him(Her, or It)? Be specific.
AZPaul3 writes:

What we do with them can be amazing. Bob Dylan, Mark Twain, and, oh how Harper Lee and Charles Dickens could put visions together.

Indeed. Language defines concept. Ideas. Ideologies. My point is, however, that if math could have existed before formulas, why could not concepts, ideas, and ideologies have existed before language got around to hanging a label on them?
Ok, cue the unicorns!
That would be fantasy, right? We both understood the reference. My argument is that God may have existed long before any human attempt to portray Him in a picture, image, or story.

If you prefer, you can call Him *The Big Idea*.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1631 by AZPaul3, posted 02-03-2019 5:54 PM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1637 by AZPaul3, posted 02-04-2019 10:55 AM Phat has responded
 Message 1638 by ringo, posted 02-04-2019 11:09 AM Phat has responded
 Message 1643 by PaulK, posted 02-04-2019 12:10 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 3762
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 1637 of 1673 (848394)
02-04-2019 10:55 AM
Reply to: Message 1636 by Phat
02-04-2019 7:52 AM


Re: Origins Of Reality
Dr. Max Tegmark, MIT physicist, cosmologist, mathematician, is so enthralled with the mathematical relationships he views Math as the reality of this universe.

In the beginning there was the Math. And the Math was in the universe. And the Math was the universe.

Same applies to the "Word" as god.

I can't go there on either account.

We use math to try to model the relationships we see between objects. Equations are neither the relationships nor the the objects themselves but symbolic representations of each. To me, math is the light that illuminates the relationships and, as far as we know at this point, the flashlight empowering that illumination is only within the human mind.

As you already saw my coming: did the relationships exist before we modeled them? For billions of years, yes, but the model did not make the relationship, only uncovered its existence.

A bit different with "idea" or "word". Until there was a human mind capable of abstract symbol manipulation, and understanding the result, there cannot have been any "idea". There was no vessel, space, time, dimension or aether to contain the idea. Nowhere for it to exist except within the emerging abstract-enabled mind.

Further, the idea of an invisible pink unicorn does not create the reality of such a thing. Same for the gods.

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1636 by Phat, posted 02-04-2019 7:52 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1639 by Phat, posted 02-04-2019 11:27 AM AZPaul3 has responded

ringo
Member
Posts: 16136
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 1638 of 1673 (848395)
02-04-2019 11:09 AM
Reply to: Message 1636 by Phat
02-04-2019 7:52 AM


Re: Origins Of Reality
Phat writes:

My point is, however, that if math could have existed before formulas, why could not concepts, ideas, and ideologies have existed before language got around to hanging a label on them?


That may have been what John had in mind - but hanging "God" onto that idea is superfluous.

"God did it" is an add-on that fits almost anywhere. "Thank you God for this meal, even though I had to work to get the money, go to the store, do all the cooking, wash the dishes, etc."


And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1636 by Phat, posted 02-04-2019 7:52 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1640 by Phat, posted 02-04-2019 11:34 AM ringo has responded

Phat
Member
Posts: 12043
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 1639 of 1673 (848397)
02-04-2019 11:27 AM
Reply to: Message 1637 by AZPaul3
02-04-2019 10:55 AM


Re: Origins Of Reality
Until there was a human mind capable of abstract symbol manipulation, and understanding the result, there cannot have been any "idea". There was no vessel, space, time, dimension or aether to contain the idea. Nowhere for it to exist except within the emerging abstract-enabled mind.
Do me a favor. Play devils advocate and make a counter-argument to what you have just stated. What would it sound like?

  • Why cannot there be an idea before a human mind defines it?
  • Why must ideas be contained only in human minds?

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

    Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
    In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
    ~Stile


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1637 by AZPaul3, posted 02-04-2019 10:55 AM AZPaul3 has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 1644 by AZPaul3, posted 02-04-2019 3:03 PM Phat has responded

  • Phat
    Member
    Posts: 12043
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.4


    Message 1640 of 1673 (848398)
    02-04-2019 11:34 AM
    Reply to: Message 1638 by ringo
    02-04-2019 11:09 AM


    Re: Origins Of Reality
    "God did it" is an add-on that fits almost anywhere.
    True. But why is it impossible for an idea to exist before humanity evolved enough to define it?
    Thank you God for this meal, even though I had to work to get the money, go to the store, do all the cooking, wash the dishes, etc.

    Remember Jesus and Pilate?
    John 19:10 writes:

    So Pilate said to Him, “Do You refuse to speak to me? Do You not know that I have authority to release You and authority to crucify You?” 11Jesus answered, “You would have no authority over Me if it were not given to you from above.

    Here is another example of a writer implying that God predated human wisdom, authority, and definition of ideas. Or do you have a better explanation for what Jesus meant in his comments concerning Pilates "power"?

    The same can be said for the idea of God. You claim its an easy copout...wghich can be true. It also offers a belief that human wisdom is not our only source nor our first source. Granted it is the expression of a belief. And how would we ever test it?


    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

    Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
    In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
    ~Stile


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1638 by ringo, posted 02-04-2019 11:09 AM ringo has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 1641 by ringo, posted 02-04-2019 11:47 AM Phat has not yet responded
     Message 1642 by Tangle, posted 02-04-2019 11:58 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

    ringo
    Member
    Posts: 16136
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005
    Member Rating: 3.1


    Message 1641 of 1673 (848400)
    02-04-2019 11:47 AM
    Reply to: Message 1640 by Phat
    02-04-2019 11:34 AM


    Re: Origins Of Reality
    Phat writes:

    But why is it impossible for an idea to exist before humanity evolved enough to define it?


    Can a painting exist without paint? You pretty much have to have the medium before the medium can do anything, don't you?

    Phat writes:

    John 19:11Jesus answered, “You would have no authority over Me if it were not given to you from above.


    Didn't Charles Manson say something similar at his trial?

    Phat writes:

    Here is another example of a writer implying that God predated human wisdom, authority, and definition of ideas.


    Writers can imply things that aren't true. What a writer thinks is only indicative of what the writer thinks.

    Phat writes:

    It also offers a belief that human wisdom is not our only source nor our first source. Granted it is the expression of a belief. And how would we ever test it?


    But it can be tested. We can compare human wisdom with wisdom that is supposedly imparted by God and we find that human wisdom is more consistent and relates better to reality.

    And our geese will blot out the sun.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1640 by Phat, posted 02-04-2019 11:34 AM Phat has not yet responded

    Tangle
    Member
    Posts: 6616
    From: UK
    Joined: 10-07-2011
    Member Rating: 3.6


    Message 1642 of 1673 (848401)
    02-04-2019 11:58 AM
    Reply to: Message 1640 by Phat
    02-04-2019 11:34 AM


    Re: Origins Of Reality
    Phat writes:

    But why is it impossible for an idea to exist before humanity evolved enough to define it?

    Because an idea requires a brain to have it.


    Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

    "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

    "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
    Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
    - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1640 by Phat, posted 02-04-2019 11:34 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

    PaulK
    Member
    Posts: 14716
    Joined: 01-10-2003
    Member Rating: 2.6


    Message 1643 of 1673 (848404)
    02-04-2019 12:10 PM
    Reply to: Message 1636 by Phat
    02-04-2019 7:52 AM


    Re: Origins Of Reality
    If you think that English words somehow exist independently of humans try reading this

    And that is still English. Just very old English.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1636 by Phat, posted 02-04-2019 7:52 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

      
    AZPaul3
    Member
    Posts: 3762
    From: Phoenix
    Joined: 11-06-2006
    Member Rating: 4.5


    Message 1644 of 1673 (848412)
    02-04-2019 3:03 PM
    Reply to: Message 1639 by Phat
    02-04-2019 11:27 AM


    Re: Origins Of Reality
    Play devils advocate and make a counter-argument to what you have just stated.

    Ok, ready?

    It got poofed ... it be majik!

    (Sorry.)

    What would it sound like?

    It would sound very much like the woo one reads about crystal/pyramid power, astrology, cosmic quantum consciousness and religion. Whack-o krazy with a capital K.

    Why cannot there be an idea before a human mind defines it?
    Why must ideas be contained only in human minds?

    Because as far as we know humans are the only entity in existence that have exhibited such abilities. Some dolphins, apes may be there. Evidence indicates some abstract abilities but how far advanced is questioned. If they're doing calculus they haven't let us watch.

    You're the woo-meister. You tell me. If an idea existed prior to human cognition, where was it? Of what was it made? How did it get from where ever into the electro-chemical synapses of the brain tissue?

    If this is another "god done it", well, you know where that gets us.

    Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.


    Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1639 by Phat, posted 02-04-2019 11:27 AM Phat has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 1649 by Phat, posted 02-07-2019 6:02 PM AZPaul3 has responded

    candle2
    Member
    Posts: 46
    Joined: 12-31-2018


    Message 1645 of 1673 (848420)
    02-05-2019 9:19 AM
    Reply to: Message 1625 by AZPaul3
    02-03-2019 2:54 PM


    Re: Where does scripture say God sacrificed himself (HIMSELF)?
    I don't know how long the earth and universe has been in existence and neither do you. If you claim to know then I want proof, or I can only assume that you are very gullible.

    How in the world do people, such as evolutionist, accept the premise that life began by rain water leaching life from the rocks?

    There has been no evidence of one kind of animal evolving into another kind of animal. The closest we come to tissue is "variation in a species."
    I know
    There is no evidence of an organism going beyond the variation programmed into it

    I don't believe that there are actual full-fledged evolutionists. The concept is simply too absurd.

    Everything that is OBSERVED supports creation.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1625 by AZPaul3, posted 02-03-2019 2:54 PM AZPaul3 has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 1646 by ringo, posted 02-05-2019 10:38 AM candle2 has not yet responded
     Message 1647 by Tangle, posted 02-05-2019 11:05 AM candle2 has responded
     Message 1648 by AZPaul3, posted 02-05-2019 9:05 PM candle2 has not yet responded

      
    ringo
    Member
    Posts: 16136
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005
    Member Rating: 3.1


    Message 1646 of 1673 (848426)
    02-05-2019 10:38 AM
    Reply to: Message 1645 by candle2
    02-05-2019 9:19 AM


    Re: Where does scripture say God sacrificed himself (HIMSELF)?
    candle2 writes:

    How in the world do people, such as evolutionist, accept the premise that life began by rain water leaching life from the rocks?


    Life began by leaching life? Would you care to think that through and try again?

    And our geese will blot out the sun.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1645 by candle2, posted 02-05-2019 9:19 AM candle2 has not yet responded

    Tangle
    Member
    Posts: 6616
    From: UK
    Joined: 10-07-2011
    Member Rating: 3.6


    Message 1647 of 1673 (848427)
    02-05-2019 11:05 AM
    Reply to: Message 1645 by candle2
    02-05-2019 9:19 AM


    Re: Where does scripture say God sacrificed himself (HIMSELF)?
    candle2 writes:

    I don't believe that there are actual full-fledged evolutionists.

    This may be the only thing you've got right.

    'Evolutionist' is simply a made up word by creationists in an attempt the make an equivalence between a religious belief and a scientific fact/theory. It impresses no-one but creationists.

    I suppose we should be thankful that so far you haven't claimed that these 'evolutionists' are all atheists which is the normal brainless approach.

    So long as you're talking about scientists actually working in the field of evolution, you could try using the term evolutionary biologist; you might get a little more respect.

    Otherwise calling someone an 'evolutionist' simply because they generally accept the theory is akin to calling someone a gavityist because, well, maybe you can work it out.

    Everything that is OBSERVED supports creation.

    I see you've given up trying to make an argument in favour of bald assertion. I really doubt that that will work.


    Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

    "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

    "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
    Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
    - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1645 by candle2, posted 02-05-2019 9:19 AM candle2 has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 1671 by candle2, posted 02-10-2019 8:51 AM Tangle has responded

    AZPaul3
    Member
    Posts: 3762
    From: Phoenix
    Joined: 11-06-2006
    Member Rating: 4.5


    Message 1648 of 1673 (848464)
    02-05-2019 9:05 PM
    Reply to: Message 1645 by candle2
    02-05-2019 9:19 AM


    Re: Where does scripture say God sacrificed himself (HIMSELF)?
    I don't know how long the earth and universe has been in existence and neither do you.

    Well, that depends. We can't get exact, I mean we're talking lots and lots of time here, right? But we've got it down to a few hundred million years or so at this point.

    If you claim to know then I want proof,

    Proof. Ah, ok, we don't do proof. We do evidence.

    Unfortunately, a lot of it is in the math and I'm thinking that might be problematic for you. Which is ok. I still have problems with some of that, too.

    life began by rain water leaching life from the rocks?

    I know what you meant. Abiogenesis: Rainwater leaching life from the rocks.

    I like the visual. I'll use that. Thank you.

    There has been no evidence of one kind of animal evolving into another kind of animal.

    That sorta depends on your world view. Evidence depends on facts and a lot of religious people have a difficult time with facts. They prefer fantasy.

    The closest we come to tissue is "variation in a species."

    Because you haven't tried "variation in a species times 4 billion years".

    That changes everything.

    There is no evidence of an organism going beyond the variation programmed into it

    Of course not. You got the modules of code you got and that's it. Fortunately, Mother Nature®, is still on duty and has slightly different programs for everyone. Then she mixes a bunch of them together and comes up with a whole new batch, each different.

    There is a lot of mixing together. Lots of that. She likes to watch.

    I don't believe that there are actual full-fledged evolutionists.

    You probably don't believe in the Illuminati either, do you, heretic!

    Everything that is OBSERVED supports creation.

    Ahh, yes. Faith v2.0.

    No. I don't care what music you like!


    Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1645 by candle2, posted 02-05-2019 9:19 AM candle2 has not yet responded

    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 12043
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.4


    Message 1649 of 1673 (848498)
    02-07-2019 6:02 PM
    Reply to: Message 1644 by AZPaul3
    02-04-2019 3:03 PM


    Re: Origins Of Reality
    You are opening quite a can of worms here. Lets review:
    Phat writes:

    Why cannot there be an idea before a human mind defines it?
    Why must ideas be contained only in human minds?


    Observe this TED Talk. It is presented by David Christian who is a Historian who has coined the phrase Big History, which is an academic discipline which examines history from the Big Bang to the present. Big History resists specialization and searches for universal patterns or trends. It examines long time frames using a multidisciplinary approach based on combining numerous disciplines from science and the humanities and explores human existence in the context of this bigger picture. It integrates studies of the cosmos, Earth, life, and humanity using empirical evidence to explore cause-and-effect relations, and is taught at universities and secondary schools often using web-based interactive presentations.

    The transcript is here: The History Of Our World In 18 Minutes

    Note some of the quotes from this talk:

  • Now, we, as extremely complex creatures, desperately need to know this story of how the universe creates complexity despite the second law, and why complexity means vulnerability and fragility.
    So it seems that it is entirely acceptable to hypothesize that the universe (through time and chance) creates. Odd why it is ridiculed why an intelligence could exist...apart from and before humans, which was also capable of creating.
    If this is another "god done it", well, you know where that gets us.

    So call it intelligence. It surely seems arrogant for humans to limit themselves to defining the possibility of ideas to have to fit within the framework of our human cognition. It also seems odd to so readily accept math as eternally existing (as long as the universe, at any rate) and yet refuse to entertain the notion that superior intelligence could as likely exist.

    One problem is that you seemingly won't entertain anything that you can't understand or explain. All I am suggesting is to allow the hypothetical without making little *it be majic* jokes and innuendos. This goes far beyond the comic book imagination of your adolescence.

    AZPaul3 writes:

    Because as far as we know humans are the only entity in existence that have exhibited such abilities.

    Fine. So what?

    You tell me. If an idea existed prior to human cognition, where was it?
    The same place the math was.
    Of what was it made?
    We do not yet know.
    How did it get from where ever into the electrochemical synapses of the brain tissue?
    Is there such a thing as an original thought? Someone had to think of the possibility. Are we simply to rule it out because we cannot yet measure it, weigh it, or visualize it? It sure seems to me that if the universe is so vast and so old relative to humans, the possibility of such intelligence(who may have invented math also) is more than slightly likely. Humans have to quit thinking of ourselves as the source for all wisdom which we document.

    Quit being so afraid of speculating on WHO or WHAT "did it". It obviously is not an idea limited to humanity...apart from our bringing it up for discussion.

    Look at computers. They existed as an idea long before humans invented them.
    They originally were envisioned as machines that solved calculations. Math existed before humanity. Calculations were thus solved without need of humans.

    Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

    Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
    In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
    ~Stile


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1644 by AZPaul3, posted 02-04-2019 3:03 PM AZPaul3 has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 1650 by AZPaul3, posted 02-08-2019 4:34 AM Phat has not yet responded
     Message 1651 by Tangle, posted 02-08-2019 5:53 AM Phat has not yet responded
     Message 1652 by ringo, posted 02-08-2019 10:52 AM Phat has responded

  • AZPaul3
    Member
    Posts: 3762
    From: Phoenix
    Joined: 11-06-2006
    Member Rating: 4.5


    Message 1650 of 1673 (848504)
    02-08-2019 4:34 AM
    Reply to: Message 1649 by Phat
    02-07-2019 6:02 PM


    Re: Origins Of Reality
    Observe this TED Talk.

    Nice talk. Worthy goal, worthy program.

    Now, we, as extremely complex creatures, desperately need to know this story of how the universe creates complexity despite the second law, and why complexity means vulnerability and fragility.
    So it seems that it is entirely acceptable to hypothesize that the universe (through time and chance) creates. Odd why it is ridiculed why an intelligence could exist...apart from and before humans, which was also capable of creating.

    Not "despite the second law" but because of it, maybe.

    There was a paper a few years ago by a math prof at Harvard/MIT someplace where he showed, quite diligently, that under a thermodynamic excess chemistry has no choice than to clump in more ordered forms. I wish I could find it. I'll keep looking.

    The problem, as I see it, is that the universe has already shown us that in open systems like Earth, entropy can take other paths allowing decreases in disorder thus "creating" things. We cannot say the same for any cosmic intelligence. There is no observed effect obvious to its existence and no mechanism viable enough to be host. It is a fantasy.

    It also seems odd to so readily accept math as eternally existing (as long as the universe, at any rate) and yet refuse to entertain the notion that superior intelligence could as likely exist.

    Prof Tegmark doesn't say that the "Math" exists in a compartment of some ethereal cosmic spacetime but that the particle/energy relationships we observe are due to the imperatives that underlay the functions of the universe, not the math's physical manifestation. There is a difference.

    Intelligence involves the access/use of facts which requires a storage medium for that information before and after its use. It seems to require pathways of causal logical analysis. It seems to need a sensory grid with mechanisms for transferring information about observed structure and happenings. All of that seems to denote structure. Quantum Cosmic Brain don't got none of that as far as can be determined. Human brains got all the above ... in spades.

    There doesn't appear to be any cosmic-wide intelligence imperatives operating in the universe. Items that some may point to as evidence of such an operation are more easily, logically and demonstrably shown to be of known and natural causes.

    It surely seems arrogant for humans to limit themselves to defining the possibility of ideas to have to fit within the framework of our human cognition.

    Yeah, we're like that. Evidence is such a bitch of a requirement.

    If an idea existed prior to human cognition, where was it?

    The same place the math was.

    Which is nowhere.

    Is there such a thing as an original thought?

    Sure.

    Humans have to quit thinking of ourselves as the source for all wisdom which we document.

    Until someone can show a viable venue otherwise, that is all we have to work with. And that appears to be quite sufficient for this tribe of monkeys to contemplate the secrets of the universe.

    Quit being so afraid of speculating on WHO or WHAT "did it".

    We aren't afraid of anything, except maybe wasps. Hate wasps.

    Actually, our curiosity is hell bent on finding out exactly what IS doing the doing and how did it get here.

    At this point in our musings we have all but eliminated a lot of crazy speculations on this subject like Quantum Cosmic Brains, fairies, interdenominational wormholes and gods. All subject to further review, of course.

    Math existed before humanity.

    With my deepest respects to Dr. Tegmark ... no.

    What would become the math within the heads of humans, the approximate models/equations, is nothing more than stuff following its natural inclinations in this universe and right now we don't know why.

    More ignorance in which to hide some gods?

    Look at computers. They existed as an idea long before humans invented them.

    Computing machines indeed entered into human consciousness well before the machine itself was built. The ideas were born of creative fact juxtipositions and the forward perceptive abilities within (solely within) a number of human brains.

    Quite different from the subject at hand here.

    Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.


    Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1649 by Phat, posted 02-07-2019 6:02 PM Phat has not yet responded

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