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Author
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Topic: Testing The Christian Apologists
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Phat
Member Posts: 18349 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.0
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Message 438 of 1086 (868051)
12-06-2019 3:44 PM
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Reply to: Message 437 by Theodoric
12-05-2019 4:41 PM
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Re: You should learn what socialism is before you talk about it
You are probably right. I have not entirely thought it through. I'm just wondering how socialism will fair with the global corporate oligarchy and with the wealthy in general? If they hypothetically own/control 90+% of the global wealth, how will that wealth ever get distributed to the free-willed masses who would choose socialism?
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~" We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 437 by Theodoric, posted 12-05-2019 4:41 PM | | Theodoric has not replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18349 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.0
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Message 439 of 1086 (868052)
12-06-2019 3:58 PM
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Lets Get Back To Christian Apologetics
To prevent my topic from drifting off course, let's get back to it. (Myself included) So far, I have listened to or researched the following apologists: 1)Norman Geisler (deceased) 2) Frank Turek 3)Josh McDowell 4)Sean McDowell 5)Ravi Zacharias 6)Nebeel Quereshi (deceased) 7)Vince Vitale 8)John Lennox 9)(Secular Humanist) Bart Campolo, whose father is an evangelist Tony Campolo. I have seen no evidence that apologists lie. I have seen that they do take parts of scripture to support other parts of scripture. I now continue to study more of them. And yes, ringo and jar, I do read the bible byut I dont critically examine it as you do. I need to believe in a living and active God, rather than merely some character in a book.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~" We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
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Phat
Member Posts: 18349 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.0
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Message 441 of 1086 (868080)
12-06-2019 11:42 PM
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Reply to: Message 440 by PaulK
12-06-2019 4:05 PM
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Re: Lets Get Back To Christian Apologetics
PaulK writes: You certainly saw evidence of dishonesty. Why not admit that? If by that you mean liberally interpreting scripture to support other scripture and dogma, I don't classify that as dishonest. I feel that a good many believers actually justify that methodology. You must remember that we believe that all scripture is inspired by God to begin with. If we don't call each other on it, (which we would do if it truly was dishonest) then we give no weight to the argument from the unbiased critical thinkers. You or others may charge me with giving scripture a special pass, and for that I plead guilty. Many of us got saved before we knew much scripture. The initial feeling of inner change from that experience gave us the belief to elevate scripture above other writing. If that is dishonest, may God judge us.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~" We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 440 by PaulK, posted 12-06-2019 4:05 PM | | PaulK has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 442 by PaulK, posted 12-07-2019 2:29 AM | | Phat has not replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18349 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.0
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Message 444 of 1086 (868132)
12-07-2019 2:06 PM
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Reply to: Message 443 by ringo
12-07-2019 11:07 AM
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Re: Lets Get Back To Christian Apologetics
Its not dishonest if you were a believer. The conclusion does haopen before the argument (of scripture) We dont "get saved" through brainwashing. The scripture then becomes alive. Living and active...sharper than a sword etc.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~" We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 443 by ringo, posted 12-07-2019 11:07 AM | | ringo has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 445 by jar, posted 12-07-2019 2:20 PM | | Phat has replied | | | Message 450 by ringo, posted 12-08-2019 1:53 PM | | Phat has replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18349 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.0
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Message 446 of 1086 (868135)
12-07-2019 2:26 PM
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Reply to: Message 445 by jar
12-07-2019 2:20 PM
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Re: Lets Get Back To Christian Apologetics
If the Conclusion precedes the evidence then it is just nonsense. Then how can you say you are a believer?
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~" We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 445 by jar, posted 12-07-2019 2:20 PM | | jar has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 447 by jar, posted 12-07-2019 3:58 PM | | Phat has replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18349 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.0
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Message 448 of 1086 (868157)
12-07-2019 4:43 PM
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Reply to: Message 447 by jar
12-07-2019 3:58 PM
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Re: Lets Get Back To Christian Apologetics
By acknowledging that my belief is unreasonable, illogical, irrational and unsupported. If I had such a belief, I likely would recant under threat of death. Granted few Christians believe strongly enough to never renounce Christ no matter the penalty. The difference is I do not twist what is actually written to try to support my beliefs. That's because everyone knows the basic story. Granted you and ringo quote what is written, but your story and conclusion differs from the vast majority of believers. Either I am to believe that most Christians simply accept the story and do not care to hear alternate versions, which is true in my case, or that the majority of Christians are dishonest and believing a fantasy, which I do not think to be the case. I can agree that the story is illogical and in some ways fanciful. I don't accept a story that limits the characters to those in a book and products of the mythos. I will not accept that humans cannot count on God and yet are expected to believe in Him. If the vast majority thinks as I do, critics can charge us of being dishonest (to reality) and believing a fantasy sold by conmen. I do not believe this to be the case. I think that in your case, you would prefer a story involving no promises, personal responsibility only, and judgment similar to your prep school honor system. You don't like the idea of a God who wipes away our sin and our responsibility. Which is why you always argued for reparations and I dismissed them. We believe what we want to be true. You may argue that you just take yours from the book, but I cannot believe that the majority of Christians missed what you apparently learned. The bottom line is that you and ringo both take evidence over belief. I do not. I think that society is being lied to by the adversary.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~" We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 447 by jar, posted 12-07-2019 3:58 PM | | jar has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 449 by jar, posted 12-07-2019 5:44 PM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18349 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.0
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Message 451 of 1086 (868199)
12-08-2019 3:35 PM
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Reply to: Message 450 by ringo
12-08-2019 1:53 PM
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Re: Lets Get Back To Christian Apologetics
ringo writes: How can you claim the scripture is "alive" to you when you reject what it says? I have only rejected assertions made by you and jar which dont line up with how the other 500+ Christians I know to interpret it or share what it says. It helps to know the author of a book before trying to understand what it says. You may argue that it's not necessary to know the author, messenger, mediator, or main character in a plot---that a book explains itself. I disagree in this case. The very first time I read the story of the snake and Eve, I understood basically what it said. Subsequent discussions confirmed and honed my understanding. Of all of the people whom I have discussed the book with, none of them except you and jar have suggested any other meaning to be gleaned. Now, who am I to believe? First, I trust my intuition. Next, I ask others. Granted it usually ends up as confirmation bias since the vast majority of Christians I know have similar interpretations. Then we have you and jar. You, in particular, stubbornly stand on the argument that the books say what they say period. Nobody else has told me this. And I have reason to question it and doubt it. Oh and one more thing. We are saved from God's judgment but not from God Himself. We become in communion with God...which is an ongoing process. jar always asks how the heck a relationship or communion with God is even possible. CS Lewis attempts to explain it: Mere Christianity writes: But supposing God became a mansuppose our human nature which can suffer and die was amalgamated with God's nature in one personthen that person could help us. He could surrender His will, and suffer and die because He was man; and He could do it perfectly because He was God. You and I can go through this process only if God does it in us; but God can do it only if He becomes man. Our attempts at this dying will succeed only if we men share in God's dying, just as our thinking can succeed only because it is a drop out of the ocean of His intelligence: but we cannot share God's dying unless God dies, and He cannot die except by being a man. That is the sense in which He pays our debt, and suffers for us what He Himself need not suffer at all. I have heard some people complain that if Jesus was God as well as man, then His sufferings and death lose all value in their eyes, "because it must have been so easy for him." Others may (very rightly) rebuke the ingratitude and ungraciousness of this objection; what staggers me is the misunderstanding it betrays. In one sense, of course, those who make it are right. They have even understated their own case. The perfect submission, the perfect suffering, the perfect death were not only easier to Jesus because He was God, but were possible only because He was God. But surely that is a very odd reason for not accepting them? The teacher is able to form the letters for the child because the teacher is grown-up and knows how to write. That, of course, makes it easier for the teacher, and only because it is easier for him can he help the child. If it rejected him because "it's easy for grown-ups" and waited to learn writing from another child who could not write itself (and so had no "unfair" advantage), it would not get on very quickly. If I am drowning in a rapid river, a man who still has one foot on the bank may give me a hand which saves my life. Ought I to shout back (between my gasps) "No, it's not fair! You have an advantage! You're keeping one foot on the bank"? That advantagecall it "unfair" if you likeis the only reason why he can be of any use to me. To what will you look for help if you will not look to that which is stronger than yourself? What problems do you have with the doctrine of substitutionary atonement? Oh, and jar: You claim that I make up the God whom I want. But it seems that you do also. You can't accept the idea of substitutionary atonement because you prefer personal responsibility and the honor system.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~" We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 450 by ringo, posted 12-08-2019 1:53 PM | | ringo has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 452 by PaulK, posted 12-08-2019 4:08 PM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied | | | Message 453 by ringo, posted 12-08-2019 4:12 PM | | Phat has replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18349 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.0
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Message 455 of 1086 (868205)
12-08-2019 5:12 PM
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Reply to: Message 454 by jar
12-08-2019 4:56 PM
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Snake Oil or Scriptural?
So you are saying CS Lewis also fell for the snake oil?
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~" We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 454 by jar, posted 12-08-2019 4:56 PM | | jar has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 457 by jar, posted 12-08-2019 6:38 PM | | Phat has not replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18349 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.0
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Message 456 of 1086 (868206)
12-08-2019 5:14 PM
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Reply to: Message 453 by ringo
12-08-2019 4:12 PM
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Re: Lets Get Back To Christian Apologetics
Nobody lies about Genesis. Some simply see a different message.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~" We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 453 by ringo, posted 12-08-2019 4:12 PM | | ringo has replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18349 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.0
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Message 459 of 1086 (868220)
12-09-2019 2:56 AM
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Reply to: Message 458 by PaulK
12-09-2019 12:16 AM
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Re: Lets Get Back To Christian Apologetics
Who praytell am I misrepresenting?
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~" We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 458 by PaulK, posted 12-09-2019 12:16 AM | | PaulK has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 460 by PaulK, posted 12-09-2019 2:58 AM | | Phat has not replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18349 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.0
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Message 462 of 1086 (868235)
12-09-2019 11:20 AM
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Reply to: Message 461 by ringo
12-09-2019 10:43 AM
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Re: Lets Get Back To Christian Apologetics
All that I claim is that I worship the character of God as I understand Him. I do not worship the book nor do I accept your explanation of what the book says. I dont trust your judgment because apart from your edict to feed, clothe, and encourage others by fulfilling the message, you have no truth in you as to what the book means. Yes, I have no *evidence*. I don't know you from Adam. But I refuse to be drawn into an argument forcing me to deny my belief. You can accuse the apologists all day. Many of them are deceived. I maintain that you and jar are deceived in that particular snake/God argument. That's all.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~" We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 461 by ringo, posted 12-09-2019 10:43 AM | | ringo has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 463 by ringo, posted 12-09-2019 11:45 AM | | Phat has replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18349 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.0
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Message 465 of 1086 (868306)
12-10-2019 3:08 PM
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Reply to: Message 463 by ringo
12-09-2019 11:45 AM
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Uncovering Why Apologists as a group are dishonest
ringo writes: I'm not "explaining" anything. I'm quoting. The book does say what it says. Im more interested in what the book means rather than simply what it says. Lets take the "God character lies...snake tells truth" argument. I tried to ponder the meaning of that statement in order to reconcile with my belief. (obviously. I'm not trying to throw anything away) The only explanation that I could come up with that made sense to me was this idea: If the God character did lie, He lied to protect His innocent creation...much as a parent might tell a little white lie to protect their kids from discovering something harmful to them. We can debate all day whether the apologists were dishonest by interpreting this idea of death as a spiritual death---most EvC critics don't buy that argument chiefly because you dont see God as personal and interactive, for one--and you dont see death as anything but natural. We observe death (and rebirth) in nature all of the time. Conversely, if the snake does in fact metaphorically represent independent free will apart from God,(Satan) the snake told the truth only in that everyone now has the ability to take the brains God gave them and use that reasoning and argumentativeness against God. Of course, none of you will allow for God to be a default option, more evidence that humans were given this ultimate reasoning to rebel against Gods objective morality. You seem to claim that I should never learn what anything "means" by listening to others...but what's the difference between listening to others (who happen to be people alive today) and taking the words in an ancient scroll at patent face value by a long-dead author? Why can't my personal belief be formed through the philosophies of several authors whom I peruse? And specifically, why should I simply accept what the book supposedly says according to you guys? For one, I am puzzled how you can go against popular apologetics...in fact, I am emailing several of the well-known apologists asking them how they would deal with your arguments and what flaws, if any, they believe that your arguments have.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~" We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 463 by ringo, posted 12-09-2019 11:45 AM | | ringo has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 466 by jar, posted 12-10-2019 3:52 PM | | Phat has replied | | | Message 467 by Tangle, posted 12-10-2019 5:16 PM | | Phat has not replied | | | Message 470 by ringo, posted 12-10-2019 9:43 PM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18349 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.0
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Message 468 of 1086 (868330)
12-10-2019 6:57 PM
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Reply to: Message 466 by jar
12-10-2019 3:52 PM
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Re: Uncovering Why Apologists as a group are dishonest
Again, it not what is written. Its how it is interpreted. The believers whom I know are not flakes. They are Pastors and teachers. They are people who actually do something. They feed, clothe, encourage, and are not paid a lot if anything. They are as intelligent as anyone here at EvC, the main difference being that you guys remain secular and evidence-based. When I observe you as a group and them as a group, I see major differences. When believers get together, there is never much disagreement on what the Bible says nor what it means. That does not make us sheep or zombies...everyone can and does read scriptures for themselves and have full discretion to say to the group or individual what it means to them. This way that you teach---throwing God away, etc...and that we can never know of our salvation until we die...is a secular, evidence-based and liberal view of the Bible not found in many from my group. And then I hear statements from you guys that confirms the differences between us. For example, the whole idea that a person need not change, have a renewed mind, abstain from casual sex, cuss if in the mood, and liberal lovey-dovey group hug type of "love" vs the deeper more somber kind that I have seen all reinforces my preferred belief. I have no problem with a woman Priest, nor even a woman "gay" one, but she sure as St.Peter better be loving God more than her significant other or she is not cut out for agape love..she is still carnal. And you all don't see problems with this liberal global lovefest. It's fake. Period. That my opinion and I'm sticking to it.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~" We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 466 by jar, posted 12-10-2019 3:52 PM | | jar has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 469 by jar, posted 12-10-2019 7:50 PM | | Phat has replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18349 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.0
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Message 471 of 1086 (868346)
12-10-2019 9:56 PM
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Reply to: Message 469 by jar
12-10-2019 7:50 PM
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Re: Uncovering Why Apologists as a group are dishonest
jar writes: Phat, I am a believer. The difference is that I believe what is written in the Bible is what is actually written in the Bible and not what I wish had been written. You say you are a believer. Why is it then that every other believer I have ever run across can tell me without hesitation what Jesus means to them---fondly, reverently, and acting as if they are talking of a literal family friend....whereas I ask you the same question and you go "Huh? What does that even mean?" like some pedantic professor seeking validation for his pet theory on literary interpretation?? Don't you see how different you are? Instead of your assertion that it is likely them being a carny sideshow, it may well be you who never quite understood how GOD could become knowable (to a degree) to humans? Those damn Baltimore Masters with their Socratic teaching method combined with innate skepticism poisoned your whole ability to believe anything apart from the number of stars you saw through a telescope.  It's ok though. Sure, Jimmy you *are* a believer! Now run along and go help old Mrs. McAlistair reach that jar of pickles high on the shelf! The Heavenly Father loves little boys who mind their manners, tow the line on the honor system, and don't check their brains at the door as the rest of these spoiled entitled fantasy-driven Americans do.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~" We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 469 by jar, posted 12-10-2019 7:50 PM | | jar has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 473 by jar, posted 12-11-2019 8:56 AM | | Phat has replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18349 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.0
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Message 472 of 1086 (868348)
12-10-2019 11:03 PM
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Dr.Ron Rhodes
I found another great series of podcasts called Apologetics 315: Today's Apologist is Dr.Ron Rhodes.
Dr. Ron Rhodes Podcast Interview Well known Apologist Dr.Ron Rhodes, former host of the Bible Answerman show for 8 years from 1994-2002 until he started his own ministry. I wrote to him, specifically bringing up the materialist logic, reason, and reality arguments here at EvC asking him how he would handle such activity.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~" We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
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