The War in Europe

I know of one instance where NASA took $$10billion and put it on a rocket and parked it out at the L2 Lagrange point on a special space pallet they special built for it. People keep going on about how that money could have been used to feed kids, and educate and clothe and medicate kids. Like maybe it could have been the NASA engineers' and janitors', the eggheads' and the sub-contractors' and the office secretaries kids, that got the benefit, you know. And coulda done that for something like 30 years. A really bad missed opportunity.

This may be a part of an agreement … written on paper … for a while. Brussels will have to determine whether this is politically acceptable. Weak? Does NATO look weak to you? Is there any doubt that NATO could take on Russia and win decisively? The only one looking weak on the world stage right now is Russia. And that is because they have just shown themselves to be far weaker and incompetent than their reputation had portrayed. Except the incompetent part. The Ruskie military has always been incompetent going back to the Czars. They can only win battles by throwing bodies at them. Percy, I think you’re smoking more than I. Her quote says quite the opposite of your comment. While calls to ease sanctions will inevitably come she is quite resolute in declaring there can be no accommodation with Putin.

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There will be no business as usual with Mr. Putin’s Russia. In fact, there can be no business at all.

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That is not fear of complacency. This comes from the leader of one of the frontline states. It is an acknowledgement that they’re in this for the long term. Decades. Longer.I still don’t think you appreciate the shock Europe is going through. Of course she is. She’s one of those neighboring countries. She’s probably aware of other more sinister attacks on her country and on NATO by Putin’s minions. She also says they resolve to stand up to these attempts. This is not fear of Putin or a fear of Russia or of the necessity to plan for war, Percy. This is resolve. I fail to see how you can interpret these statements otherwise. You mean like he’s been doing all this past month? This is not new, Percy. It is happening on the ground today. Putin’s torture and rape of Ukraine is expected to continue until … Emotional hype. The reality on the ground is looking much different.

Russia has just shown to the world, including its own Czar, that the Russian military is crap. Russia cannot take on NATO because they do not have the military means to do so. The Imperial Russian Army, considering its present condition, would be easily swept from Poland as it entered. It’s even ludicrous to consider.The facts we are seeing on the ground tell a very bad picture for the Russian. Their military performance is far below expectations and their economy is fragile and is beginning to fail. They cannot sustain a war against a comic in Kiev let alone against the 28 nation-sized gorilla that surrounds it. You think Zelenskyy is negotiating in a vacuum? Wake up, Percy. This is the modern age. Zelenskyy’s position is highly dependent on what support he gets from NATO. If NATO advises for/against negotiating a ban on Ukraine entry to NATO then there is a damn good reason and it would be is to his advantage that Zelenskyy negotiate that way. These situations are not separate acts. And Russia is in no condition to dictate terms. Their invasion failed and their occupation, though brutal and bloody, is failing as well. You do know that Russia is a nuclear power? It has nukes. Military escalation is one thing. Nuke escalation is another. NATO has no fear of the Russian military. They fear his nukes. That is not weakness, Percy. That is prudence. What are you talking about? No one is contemplating invading Russia. That’s insane. What we are talking about is your fear that Russia will invade NATO. That is also insane. Tzar Vladimir the Condemned has seen how incompetent his military is.The point is that if Russia did move on NATO the Russian forces would be brushed aside easily. NATO would win decisively without having to march all the way to Moscow. Let the Russian absorb all the invasion they want. NATO can decisively defeat Russia without much of an invasion. We’re talking military power not political longevity. Vietnam and Afghanistan were political, not military, defeats.
You are deliberately confusing the two for what reason? Do you really think NATO can’t punch Putin hard in the nose and then still make it home in time for lunch? NATO does not have to occupy Russia to snip its balls off and leave it neutered. Something the Russians are already doing to themselves with this incompetent invasion crap. Catherine, Peter, Stalin, Putin all had the same problem with their armies. Their autocracy leads to incompetent command structures. That is Russia historically. That is not going to change under Putin at this late date. Do you really think touching off a nuclear war would have helped? Prudence, Percy, prudence.Europe’s shock has already become evident in galvanizing action to supply Ukraine and fortify the eastern border. Long term actions will include more military spending aimed specifically at Russia. There will be no complacency until NATO has an opportunity to assess Putin’s replacement. They used to be, before Ukraine. Now we see it was all bluster, smoke, mirrors and miss-direction. No one believes that Russian crap any more. And when it came to the actual nut cutting NATO stood as one. Putin’s efforts to confuse and sideline NATO failed just like his invasion. Such efforts by Putin in the future will be seen for what they are and ignored.

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Despite Russia’s initial failures, many commentators believe it is only a matter of time before Putin unleashes the full might of his military on Ukraine’s cities and deposes its government.

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“the full might of his military” has already blown its wad. It is “systemically” incompetent. The more Putin fights the more he will lose. The only power he has left is nuclear and other weapons of mass destruction. This makes no sense. Who is minimizing the Russian threat? What in this present scenario applies to Hitler?Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.

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[vashee zda-ró-vye] – Your health! (as you down a shot) Yet you said as much in other posts. You quoted others who echoed your list of future targets explicitly pointing out, proudly, that it including Poland.If you know it’s a fiction why do you keep repeating it? And in my mind, it is a very major point in this discussion and so I respond to the major point. Poland (though I know you disagree I will extend this further) along with all NATO states are safe from any Russian incursions. Now and for the foreseeable future. And I will strengthen that yet further and state that NATO, in its entirety and as individual states, are immune to Russian influence. His propaganda, his divisive rhetoric, his bluster, threats and lies are exposed known qualities and will be ignored. Putin really has lost all luster, influence and effect on anything NATO. As with all such things, there are possibilities then there are probabilities. You don’t have to read the tea leaves, just the editorials and speeches, to know which way to put your money. NATO will, not may, not possibly, but will, arm Ukraine. The Russian military is having it’s head handed to it. By both the Ukraine and by Putin.If the reports of social media and phone calls are correct the Russian ground commands are driven more by vodka than by diesel. Realistically, real world, there is no way the Russians will majikly get competent. The reasons are centuries old. What I’m saying, Percy, is that though Zelenskyy will lead and decide the treaty, he will pay most special attention to his NATO advisors analysis. He has all the negotiating power and tactics of every NATO egghead at his command. And you can see he is using it. He knows his government hasn’t the class of international negotiators that NATO provides.He wants to be in NATO. He will most probably follow NATO’s advice. Very true. If you have seen Putin’s writing, my understanding is he is real big on restoring the reach of the USSR but with the grandeur of the Great Russian Empire. Ukraine represents a big jewel from both past crowns. Do you deny that the invasion has failed? Most of the analysists I’ve read say the invasion has failed and has failed in a spectacularly abysmal and incompetent way. Do you doubt the occupation is seen as also failing? By what view do see something different? Would you do so differently? Whether you call it weakness, fear, existential dread or prudence, the point for any sane person is don’t light that fuckin match.I’ll surrender the point. We’re all scared shitless about the fucking bomb. So you would have pulled the trigger? You would have gambled the survival of the species against Putin’s tanks?Rephrase: You would have intervened in the Ukraine knowing a nuclear confrontation might result? Oh, Percy. War has changed again. This isn’t WW2 or Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq. You don’t have to invade the capitol city and capture the radio station to decapitate a tyrant. Once you have defeated his army, which NATO could easily do with Russia, you lay siege. Let economics and politics do the rest. Things are quite different in my world. What I am seeing is a Russia that has just had its paw broken in a bear trap. Russia has no functional army of consequence left. I see a Russia that is economically and socially breaking from sanctions. His economy cannot rebuild his army in time for him to use it.His wallet isn’t fat enough to do the rebuild necessary before he is dead. Even Czars don’t live forever. The sad state Russian is in today coupled with the lagging sanctions that have yet to fully hit, and further sanctions yet to be implemented in the foreseeable future, I don’t think anyone can expect the Russian Empire to recover anytime soon. Unless Putin is killed. Then things can improve tremendously … maybe.What this means, Percy, is that Putin can't invade a NATO country. He hasn't the military capacity (more than number of bullets) to do so. And I don't think he can get it repaired. Your words. Not mine. The bullets worked just fine. But even with the best bullets there was no way to “win” Vietnam or “win” Afghanistan. The politics, the humanity, the reality of the human condition would not allow it to continue.You can’t tell me you cannot see the difference between military competence and political competence in any war, especially the ones we seem to get all hell-bent to get into.In modern war, Percy, the military only fights the war. The politics wins or loses it. Neither does a nuclear winter. You really want to bet the human species on this gamble? A drunk surf is only going to bleed so much. An incompetent command structure (I like that “powered more by vodka than by diesel” quip) can move all the pretty pieces around the board all they want.This IS the second most powerful army in the world. We HAVE seen their sheer superiority.Yes they can kill a lot of people and do a lot of damage, but as a military fighting force with mastery of the logistics, the science and the battlefield the Russian Imperial Army is incompetent and unqualified. And from historical systemic views emanating from an elite power structure the Russian officer corps will remain incompetent. And will remain so for the rest of Tzar Vladimir the Condemned’s reign. That’s right. Russian propaganda is not a significant issue now or for the foreseeable future. Putin got caught too many times with his ass hanging out his pants. He has effectively destroyed those avenues of influence. Percy, Percy. This is not unjustly minimizing an existing threat below its actual value. This is a dispassionate review of the facts as displayed in theater by the most incompetent army since Russia was in Afghanistan.Putin can use his army to rape the Ukraine. Rest assured it will do so in a vodka-fueled incompetent and very bloody way.You want to risk nuclear war to stop him?Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.

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We are well long into the “watch for disinformation” phase of this conflict. And, my view, we seem to be getting better at it. The spidey senses are tingling all over the net all over the world. LNA was probably not alone in his efforts and was probably not alone in getting stomped.What’s fascinating to me is that we can sit by, study the various media feeds, spidey-sense away suspected bad actors and the Fox-level propaganda and get a good look at what is happening behind the fog. In my old media boggled mind the technology has surpassed magic. The detail of events is so vivid and set for verification that independent sources appear in short order while lies are quickly identified and exposed.Humanity is seeing, feeling and reacting in societies everywhere, almost instantly, to a free flow of constant real-time information. And it is that reaction that has changed the politics of this war in ways I can appreciate and support.We are facing a lot of propaganda, hate speech and scum-sucker’s opinions but when I step back and look at the net and the depth of the new technologies and how they have changed this war I have to sing praises to the First Amendment and the world-wide manifestation of Free Speech. A free web.Tzar Vladimir the Condemned is trying real hard but no one can hide from this thing. The monster conscious world-wide web. www.humanity-all-of-us.netSecond Amendment be damned! Up the First!Yes, stomping on LNA was OUR expression of free speech. We can't put him in jail but we can stomp on his head for the lies. Up Your First!Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.

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Just because a big monster goes around beating up on little girls, stomping on their sand castles, does not mean the monster isn't stupid, incompetent or drunk.If you have not seen the incompetence of the russian you aren't looking. Destructive power is not the measure. Mission success is. Here, the russian miserably fails.

And you have a blind man's vision of the whole scenario.

I read where Russia is saying they are adopting a new strategy, will withdraw from around Kiev and other areas of Ukraine to concentrate on securing the Donbas region which is still being heavily contested.Now we get to see if this elite premier world class military juggernaut can retreat back into Belarus without having to abandon everything and walk.

Phat, Phat, please think first.Yes everyone knows basing a world currency on the currency of one nation is inherently dangerous. The oil shocks of the 80s wrenched that up big time. The dollar is still the de facto world currency (store of value) until everyone, Phat, everyone, agrees otherwise.You are in no danger of waking up one morning to hear that overnight the rest of nations switched to Worldies and your $$Dollars are now worthless. Complex world-interconnected economies don't work that way. There will be years of notice, years of agreement and years of market adjustment before the hammer drops.Then the dollar will be free to float and adjust, unencumbered by the pressures as the world's currency, in accordance with our national worth, which is noticeably sliding downward.Yeah, being nothing special in a world of equals is going to take some getting used to.

So what else is new, Phat. Of course the Russians want to control. That's why they manufactured this war to being with. They want control of the whole coastline and then inland to Kiev and west to the Polish border. That is what they want to control, not just a few ports.But you are not wrong. Black Sea control is why the Crimea was so necessary to Catherine the Great. That's why Putin went and took back in 2014.Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.

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To back up what jar said;The “full faith and credit of the United States” which is the only "asset” backing the dollar, as powerful an idea as it may be, is still only a persistent ephemeral fiction as long as the world wants to believe. There is nothing there but a promise. Right now I believe you. I have confidence I can take to the bank. Next year? Maybe not so much.Thus it is with all currency. As it is with any store of value. The value is in the common perception. Even for gold.Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.

I'm thinking the disconnect is what war would entail. If russia were to move against NATO, no matter where, NATO would defend, stunt the attack, repel the attack then determine if going farther is militarily and politically necessary. Taking out supply lines in Russia, taking out forward airfields in Russia, if warranted, taking up defensive positions on Russian soil are all probable.If one wants to call that invading Russia then so it is.NATO Article 5 is the authorization. Political and military necessity will determine which borders will be crossed. Conquering Russia is not the goal. Stopping their BS and defending NATO territory is. If that means crossing into Russia to affect a military strike, so be it.

Good God, Tangle, I wasn't attributing any of this invasion BS or anything else to you.I was commenting on where I saw the issue with the semantics.I know your head's on straight. Calm down.

Tangle, that second quote was not from me.Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.

I assume you had a couple of pints and your eyes were floating. Next time I get to buy.