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Member (Idle past 4174 days) Posts: 67 From: Traverse City, MI usa Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Time, a brief history | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
sinamatic Member (Idle past 4174 days) Posts: 67 From: Traverse City, MI usa Joined: |
I have a little theory on time that I feel leans towards the existance of God. Please give it some thought and I would love to hear your replies.
Time doesn't fly, there is no father time, time is just another measurement. It makes more sense to me to view the history of the universe as "the history of the universe" rather than call it time or anything else. Time is a measurement of change and should not be used to describe all change that has happened or will happen because I think it causes confusion. When we think philisophically, we use language in our minds. We use what we know as fact and try to formulate theories that most logically coincide with those facts. If you look up time in a dictionary you will see many definitions. I know that in mathematics time is used in equations like mass, velocity, and distance. "The second (symbol s) is a unit for time, and one of seven SI base units. It is defined as the duration of 9,192,631,770 periods of the radiation corresponding to the transition between the two hyperfine levels of the ground state of the caesium-133 atom at zero kelvin."(googled it lol) There has to be something that changes for time to be measured. Time is just another measurement of matter like weight, velocity, gravity, magnetism etc etc. This lead me to believe that without matter, measurements like weight, velocity, and time do not exist or exist only in imagination. For example, how could you compare nothing to nothing? I came to the conclusion that time, weight, velocity and all the other measurements did not come into existance until matter did. I feel that the begining to time has to be the begining of matter. History began when matter was created. Most of us would agree that the past is done and over with, it cannot be changed. For us to get to this particular point in history, i.e., you sitting there right now, your ancestors had to live and die, the earth had to make a certain revolutions around the sun etc etc. I found a problem with the thought of the universe always existing. If the past was done and over with, it could not have gone back forever otherwise we would never get to the current point we are at. How could you start at negative infinity and climb to 2006? Even if history repeated itself I felt that we would still be at a certain number of repetitions. Another way of explaining it, is if all matter had to react with itself to reach the form it is at today it could not have been forever reacting in history. It makes far more sense to me to believe the bible and accept that the universe was created by God. When God created matter and the laws of physics and time, history, weight, velocity and all other measurements could now be measured. It explains in the Bible that God is unchanging. In the book of Malachi it says "I the Lord do not change." (NIV) It is a very interesting statement to me. That would mean that God is not made of matter, seeing how all matter changes, nor is he bound by any of the laws of physics. God made matter and all of natures laws. Jesus meant it when he said "God is Love." Anyway, I understand that my theory by no means proves God's existance. Personally, I find it foolish to accept that God can create everything including the laws of the universe, then try to disprove or prove his existance using those same laws or think that he is bound by them. However, science is bound by those laws and I think is flawed if you think of the universe as always being in existance.
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sinamatic Member (Idle past 4174 days) Posts: 67 From: Traverse City, MI usa Joined: |
The theory is that history is a truth that has already happened and has to have a begining because of it's nature.
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sinamatic Member (Idle past 4174 days) Posts: 67 From: Traverse City, MI usa Joined: |
First, that's assuming there was a big bang, not that I entirely disagree with it. Second, I don't understand what you said by time losing meaning as we approach the big bang. As for God, as I stated, I feel he's not made of any matter thus he's not affected by time but actually controls it. That is why the Bible says he does not change. All matter changes. I could only guess as to exactly what God is or his motives. Science I feel is a creation of God. Comparing the two is like comparing a dream with the dreamer. The idea of an infinate universe is impossible to my logic. It's like being on a certain floor of a sky scraper that never touches the ground. I accept God because I can imagine something greater than matter, and thus time, even though I don't understand him or have ever seen him. When we study the universe we use certain laws that everyone accepts as fact to determine age, composition, size, temperature etc. Using those same laws I just can't accept an infinate anything consisting of matter.
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sinamatic Member (Idle past 4174 days) Posts: 67 From: Traverse City, MI usa Joined: |
I might have been redundant with some of what you said. As for God, I agree with what you say. I only added God into the satement because of the fact that he says he does not change. Naturally, if someone says time had a begining, usually the question that follows is "What started it?"
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sinamatic Member (Idle past 4174 days) Posts: 67 From: Traverse City, MI usa Joined: |
jar writes: Well, there is lots of evidence for the Big Bamg, so it's not an assumption but rather a conclusion based on the evidence. Ok but BB does not answer much and doesn't discount my theory. Supposing BB is true still doesn't solve my problem with history
jar writes: I believe you don't. But as I'm sure one of our cosmologists will explain to you, even time itself as well as all of our laws of physics just don't seem to make sense or apply as we get close to the instant of teh BB. In addition, terms like "before the Big Bang" definite don't have any meaning within the knowledge we have so far. I will wait for their reply I guess, nice cheap shot btw.
jar writes:
Well we can't exactly prove how the universe is the way it is in a lab
Fine. But again, incredulity has nothing to do with science or knowledge.
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sinamatic Member (Idle past 4174 days) Posts: 67 From: Traverse City, MI usa Joined: |
fnord writes:
I'm getting off topic but I'll share my view. God wanted companionship and it is his nature to create. That is why it is also our nature to create. He made us in his own image. He is free to think how he wants and he wanted us to have the same right. Satan was once an angel and he challenged God's wisdom. This was the war in heaven, a war of ideas. After the war, satan was allowed to tempt man into betraying God. God created us and paved the way for us to follow him on faith. Man was doomed from the begining. Jesus became a man and lived without disobeying God and was punished for us. God is just and that satisfied God's need for justice. I try not to think Good or Evil, just with God or against God. I think God simply wants to find the souls that are willing to stand with him and trust him. I see God as perfect and having wisdom that is beyond ours. As far as God knowing everything, perhaps he chooses to not look sometimes? Who knows...
Funny you should say that. I should think quite the opposite: your musings are evidence the god of the bible does not exist. God can change his mind, for instance the bible tells us He created a flood when he was disappointed in man. But disapointment means He is as much subject to time as we are; because apparently earlier He wasn't disappointed yet. In fact, if He's truly outside time, if He knows past, present and future, He would know the world would turn out as it did. But then why did He bother creating it?
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sinamatic Member (Idle past 4174 days) Posts: 67 From: Traverse City, MI usa Joined: |
jar writes:
All evidence I have seen points to the fact that matter reacts with other matter. After a long series of reactions(ex. gravity, magnetism, energy etc.) the universe took the shape it is currently at. These reactions had to happen before the universe could become exactly the form it is today. I can accept that reactions could continue to happen forever in the future but not that reactions happened forever in the past. -Hope that helps clarify things Can't quite figure out what your problem with history is?
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sinamatic Member (Idle past 4174 days) Posts: 67 From: Traverse City, MI usa Joined: |
jar writes:
well I referenced my belief because this forum is: A belief in GOD is fine, no one objects to your belief, but it has no place in Science or in the study of the Big Bang, time, the universe or any other such endeavor.Big Bang and Cosmology Did the universe begin as a vastly dense singularity billions of years ago, or with God's immortal words just some thousands of years ago? How do Creationism and science explain the universe we see today?
I don't understand why you think God cannot be discussed in a forum with a question of God as it's description. I merely stated the evidence from science as I interpret it and Evidence from the Bible as I interpret it. I only talked about God because I believe the universe must have been created by a higher being not bound by the laws of physics...
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sinamatic Member (Idle past 4174 days) Posts: 67 From: Traverse City, MI usa Joined: |
Fine. We know that is your belief. But we are also on the Science side where you are expected to provide some evidence to support your assertions.
I believe I have
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sinamatic Member (Idle past 4174 days) Posts: 67 From: Traverse City, MI usa Joined: |
son Goku writes:
I disagree. Space and time are two totally different things. The reason many call this idea space-time, is because they cannot explain it. You can measure the distance between two moving forms of matter. That is space. Measuring how long that matter took to reach that distance is time. Different but indeed relative.
One anti-intuitive aspect to nature we've learned from General Relativity is that time and space are entirely relative.What one observer calls space, another will call time and vice-versa. What some would call before, others will call after, e.t.c. Time is simply a path in spacetime. However near the Big Bang classical spacetime itself starts to give over to something else entirely. Concepts like before and after break down entirely.
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sinamatic Member (Idle past 4174 days) Posts: 67 From: Traverse City, MI usa Joined: |
nosy writes:
I am not relying on time or space or spacetime to back my idea. I am simply saying that change does not come from no change when it comes to matter. How can I say this?; we have never seen any evidence to think otherwise. That is not that mind-boggling to comprehend. It is you who have no comprehension of the universe you live in. It is believing the truth of the matter, or shall I say truth of matter, that makes it so simple.
Unfortunately, your opinion doesn't count for jack squat. Einstein formulated a description where space and time are aspects of one thing. The predictions of his threories have been found to be highly accurate in very many, very careful tests. Spacetime does behave as the relativity equations predict. You are quite simply utterly wrong about the fundamental nature of the universe that you live in. This is, of course, completley understandable. A major outcome of what we learned through the 20th century is that the real nature of our universe is very, very counter to our intuition and daily experiences so of course we find it mind-boggling to try to consider the truth of the matter. A boggled mind is, however, not to be relied on for this.
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sinamatic Member (Idle past 4174 days) Posts: 67 From: Traverse City, MI usa Joined: |
How bout you try again and give me evidence of why I am wrong instead of just saying so because of what Einstein said...
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sinamatic Member (Idle past 4174 days) Posts: 67 From: Traverse City, MI usa Joined: |
Space-time was thought-up to make equations work. The idea of space-time being stretched is because the speed of light had complications. For example, Lets say you have two stars, one moving through space towards us and the other moving away us) . Light is immited from them. Is the light from the star moving towards us faster than the light from the star moving away? Gravitational pull is a phenomenon that couldn't be explained so space-time was presented. However, I am simply saying that matter affects matter in observation. If space-time is the reason for this observation, it does not make the observation obsolete. Anyway you look at it change yields change. If you want to explain the universe with mathamatics, it doesn't take long to realize that some things don't add up.
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sinamatic Member (Idle past 4174 days) Posts: 67 From: Traverse City, MI usa Joined: |
Yes. It is a theory. But do we have evidence for this theory?
There is good evidence but it is highly theoretical.
How do you mean? And, with all due respect, why are you challenging the assumptions of traditional cosmological science in a non-scientific, speculative manner?
What I present does not necessarily contradict traditional cosmological science. When people talk of space-time most describe it as having fabric like properties. When something with high mass is present it acts like a bowling ball on a bed spread. What is this fabric though? -Just as unscientific and speculative as what I say- My original statement does not really contradict the popular opinion as to the science and math that can be observed. It does however contradict the idea of an infinate universe or better said; infinate change
What do you base your observations of cosmology on? Math? Science? How can we define the terms we use? (I am excluding religion in this topic)
I am basing my observations on change in general, such as the proven fact that the universe appears to be expanding etc. I view math as a man made idea that corresponds to universal phenomenon, and change.I view science as the practice of proving that these phenomenon's exist and using those phenomenons to make our lives better and to better understand them. What is the truth of matter? Lets discuss matter for a moment. What is matter? brokenpride writes: Yes. It is a theory. But do we have evidence for this theory? Space-time was thought-up to make equations work.brokenpride writes: How do you mean? And, with all due respect, why are you challenging the assumptions of traditional cosmological science in a non-scientific, speculative manner? However, I am simply saying that matter affects matter in observation.Brokenpride writes: There is no definite answer, as there is in religion. As a Christian, I question my belief, but I also know that there is no definite answer that my mind can comprehend...my God is real, yet I cannot provide a mathimatical formula for Him. Lets get back to the science side of all this, however. If you want to explain the universe with mathamatics, it doesn't take long to realize that some things don't add up.What do you base your observations of cosmology on? Math? Science? How can we define the terms we use? (I am excluding religion in this topic) Brokenpride writes:
[qs]What is the truth of matter? Lets discuss matter for a moment. I am simply saying that change does not come from no change when it comes to matter. How can I say this?; we have never seen any evidence to think otherwise. That is not that mind-boggling to comprehend. It is you who have no comprehension of the universe you live in. It is believing the truth of the matter, or shall I say truth of matter, that makes it so simple. What is matter? [qs] I cannot give the best explanation of matter but I can tell you what I meant by the word- Anything that moves or changes. I am aware of concepts like anti-matter and such but I used the word matter because of lack of a better word. I am basing all of my ideas on the notion that there is truth in all things. Some people accept some truths and deny other truths. For example some people can conceive of an infinate amount of points between these two arrows >-----------------------------------------< However, I can cross those infinate amount of points with my finger. Is there a smallest common denominator that one must use when measuring distance? If so, then does movement jump from one cordinate to the next? How can we explain movement itself.
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sinamatic Member (Idle past 4174 days) Posts: 67 From: Traverse City, MI usa Joined: |
lol sorry for all the confusion in my last post. If you can sift through it you probably have better concentration than I do.
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