Is there such a thing as chance?

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I wouldn't mind billions of years of this and that, if there were an explanation of where that very first thingie came from that allows the rest of the story.

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Ah, so it's uncertainty and a lack of knowledge that makes you uncomfortable, then?

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And none of the erudite of science have been able to tell me what chance does chance have without that first thingie.
It's enough to make one believe in God.

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...and since you are uncomfortable with uncertainty, you plug "god" into that gap in our knowledge.Tell me, is everything we don't understand caused by God?

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The only thing I feel right now which can induce chance would be our own free will.

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What do you mean by "induce" chance?

OK, so how do humans cause randomness to happen?

OK, I see.Hey, thanks. That is comment #2 in favor of my old avatar.Maybe I'll switch.

Let's go back and look at why I wrote what I did, shall we?

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Uncertainty? No
Uncomfortable? No

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If you aren't uncomfortable with not knowing where the first "thingie" came from, then why did you say this:

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I wouldn't mind billions of years of this and that, if there were an explanation of where that very first thingie came from that allows the rest of the story.

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It certainly seems like you need to have an explanation of the first "thingie", and that it kinda bugs you that there isn't one, and that's why I said:

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And since you have determined that I am uncomfortable, please determine that I am not. I will tell you when I am.

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Uh, when you say that you kinda have a problem with not having an explanation of where the first "thingie" came from, and therefore you believe in God, then it sure seems like you are a bit uncomfortable not knowing.

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Lack of knowledge? Whose

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Yours, and ours.

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Caused by God?
Tell me, who causes everything YOU don't understand.

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I don't know. That's what it means to not understand the cause of something.

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And if my determination differs from yours, then it differs from yours.

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Obviously, but let's remember that you said this:

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And none of the erudite of science have been able to tell me what chance does chance have without that first thingie.
It's enough to make one believe in God.

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So, if science can't tell us something, then one must believe in God in order to have an answer that is a certain, rather than an uncertain one, right?Well, why can't the answer be "We don't know"?For you, it seems to be because you don't like the uncertainty that this entails.

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Naaa, just everything.

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Do you really want to say that EVERYTHING is caused by God?Because that means that God seems to be pretty mean.

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Astonishing.
Do you read palms?
Crystal balls, perhaps, cards?
Astonishing and wonderful.
'scuse me, must go check if I'm a boy or a girl, on foot or on horseback, bye.

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OK, let me get this straight:You don't like it when I use your own arguments back at you.You don't like it when I base my opinions of your arguments upon the actual words you use.Instead of clarifying, you decide to respond with incoherent babbling in order to avoid addressing any actual point.Right.(pssssst...maybe there's something wrong with your argument)

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Nothing happens except by the will of the Father, even the bad stuff. He allows it to happen when we screw up, and cause it.

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How did a toddler with juvenile lukemia "screw up and cause" God to give them cancer?

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Thats just it, man sins by polluting the earth. So through punishment from moral sins, as well as sinning from polluting the earth, we all suffer.
Thats something you athiests, or wahtever you are, fail to see, that we are a human RACE and need to be responsible for each other and the earth.

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That's funny. I could have sworn I read about the big business fatcats and lawmakers in the US not worrying about pollution or raping the land because they were sure that the Bible indicated that the End Times were near, so why bother?

It means that many Fundamentalist Christians, including some who are powerful businesspeople and lawmakers at the highest level of government, and who believe that the End Times are near don't particularly see the point in protecting the environment because the world is going to end soon anyway.Christians are NOT at the forefront of the Environmental movement.

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No one knows who a true Christian is, but everyone knows in their heart if they are or aren't. Do you think thats true?

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No.I think that, for example, it is very clear that President Bush believes very strongly that he is a true Christin, but he has done a lot to roll back environmental laws in the last 4 years.I think that most people who call themselves Christian belive that they are a "true" christian, and that they justify all sorts of contradictory behaviors with the Bible, because it can be used to justify anything.

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I don't agree with that. I may just be ignorant, and I am basing my assumption on how I feel about it, and how others feel about it when you talk to them. But Bush knows exactly what he does, and knows exactly what is against God or not. I could care less what he professes to be.

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But it is well-known that Bush had a religious conversion and became Born Again after doing drugs and drinking for the first 25 years of his adult life. Billy Graham led him to that conversion.He calls himself a Christian, so who am I (or you) to say he isn't?Now, you are the one who says that Christians are to take care of the Earth, yet Bush has done a great deal to undo many environmental protection laws in his first appointed term in office.If you consider protecting the environment to be a vital part of being a Christian, is Bush not a Christian to you? I'm sure he would disagree, and believes with all his heart that he is a Christian.

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I only voted for him, becasue to me he was the lesser of 2 evils based on key issues, but President Bush is a far cry from being a great president IMO.

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If you voted for bush than you voted for a liar with no regard for human life.He will go down in history as the worst US president to date.

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I feel that the truth resides in all of our hearts. We know when we do things wrong.

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Does Bush think that rolling back environmental law is wrong? If so, why did he do it over and over again?He must not think it is wrong to do so, yet you say that it is very important for Christians to protect the Earth.

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You have palavered with most Christians

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Hardly. Only a few.

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and arrived at this well-thought-out conclusion as to what they should be according to your criteria.

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Well, no.I use use the Christian's own criteria, not mine.I should also tell you that I was raised a Christian and was one until my mid twenties.

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Fascinating and pitiable.

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Look, if using your own arguments and criteria back at you is problematic, then maybe you should use a different argument.

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You cannot possibly know what transpires in the mind of Christians,including that of President Bush.

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That's true.I can only look at their statements and actions and compare them with the criterion of what a "true Christian" should say and do according to the Christians' own criterion.

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But there you sit on your arse of judgment,dishing out opinions with vigor.

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Sure, why not?I cannot know someone's mind, but I can certainly apply criterion, supplied by Christians themselves, to evaluate actions and words, can I not?...and what does it matter if someone is a pure Christian in his mind and heart if his actions and words do not reflect it?How would I tell the difference?

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The Christian's own criteria colored by what?

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I try very hard to not color it at all, but to take the criterion as plainly and as straightforward as I can.Each Christian's criterion are usually different, though, so I usually have to ask a lot of questions to get the criterion clear.I have asked you lots of questionst to try to do just that, but I'm afraid that it seems that you are not much for making yourself crystal clear WRT your criterion for what makes a real Christian.

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The experience that changed your mind?

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There was not a single experience.Indeed, it was more that I noticed that the experiences and feelings I was "supposed" to be having being a believe weren't happening to me. I had too many questions, noticed too many inconsistencies, realized that there was no way to tell the difference between real religious experience and false ones.

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Never mind, Schraf. Keep up the good work, we need you to help us stay on our toes.

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Be careful what you wish for.

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There is no set rule, so far as I'm concerned, as to what makes a 'real' Christian. It is simply a matter between the man and his maker, or the woman. It is not the 'Borg'.

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Well, does that mean that anyone who calls themselves a Christian, no matter how heinous their behavior or views, can still be a "true" Christian in your eyes?

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As for inconsistencies? What you have found is for you to handle, but it is not for you to project on others who are compelled to call your clouds sunny weather, or vice versa.

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Let me explain. By "inconsistencies", I mean the fact that there are so very many religions that are currently practiced, or have been practiced in the past. Most of them claim to be the Truth, and that all the others are wrong. They can't all be right, and the largest determinant of what religion you will be is the place you were born combined with the religion of your parents.

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If you are happy with your choices, see it in yourself to let me be happy with mine.

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I have no problem with whatever anyone believes. However, when people start to claim that theirs is the One True Faith, and that another faith, or lack of faith, is inferior to their view, I have a problem.The Christians I have encountered on this board generally think it's normal to think their worldview is superior to all others.That bugs me.

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You see no beauty in Christ? I see nothing else.

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I see much beauty in the Bible and in the concept of Christ, just as I see beauty in Zen, in the Buddah, in the Great Spirit, in Krishna, and in many other religious myths that have great messages of love and life.Doesn't make any of them the One True Faith.

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I do, however, have it much better than you.

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No kidding? How so?

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For I also see rewarding beauty in all of science, regardless.

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No, I clearly have it better than you, because I can appreciate the beauty in Jesus, but I can also appreciate the beauty in Zen, in the Buddha, in the Great Spirit, and in Krishna. I would guess that you would not allow yourself to approach these religions in the open way that I can.