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Author Topic:   Creationist/ID Education should be allowed
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 2165 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 4 of 116 (367933)
12-06-2006 10:23 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by platypus
12-05-2006 6:05 PM


No Dice
There MUST be no concession to creationists on any front regarding science education. Religion simply has no business dictating what can and cannot be taught in the classroom. We should be raising our standards and expecting our high school students to learn more about the sciences.

Also, there is no way to sidestep the origin of species issue in geosciences. Fossil history is a vital diagnostic tool as well as one of the most facinating aspects of that science. To restrict it based on the hurt feels of some fundamentalists is not just wrong, it is a dire travesty.


Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by platypus, posted 12-05-2006 6:05 PM platypus has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by platypus, posted 12-06-2006 1:53 PM Jazzns has responded

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 2165 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 8 of 116 (368006)
12-06-2006 3:14 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by platypus
12-06-2006 1:53 PM


Re: No Dice
anyway. These two topics aren't really high school curriculum, and I am specifically refering to a high school education.

That is the thing, these concepts SHOULD BE in high school curriculum. We should be working to include MORE into high school and not agreeing to less. This is especially true when such a concession is to the impotent and ignorant religious fundamentalists.

I object wholesale to taking into account even creationists "feelings" when it comes to deciding what to do with science curriculium. There is no compromise for them. They are invaders into the public education system with the expressed intent to dumb down the education of our children in the name of God. Since they have no regard for the education they want to cripple they get no say. Period.


Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)
This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by platypus, posted 12-06-2006 1:53 PM platypus has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by Chiroptera, posted 12-06-2006 3:32 PM Jazzns has responded
 Message 12 by platypus, posted 12-07-2006 1:23 PM Jazzns has responded
 Message 15 by EraqiDberg, posted 12-08-2006 8:03 AM Jazzns has responded

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 2165 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 10 of 116 (368019)
12-06-2006 3:42 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Chiroptera
12-06-2006 3:32 PM


Re: Uh oh.
If virility really was a function of ignorance I certainly would have to ask some people, "how's it hanging?"

Edited by Jazzns, : No reason given.


Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)
This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Chiroptera, posted 12-06-2006 3:32 PM Chiroptera has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by Chiroptera, posted 12-06-2006 6:36 PM Jazzns has not yet responded

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 2165 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 30 of 116 (402863)
05-30-2007 12:01 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by platypus
12-07-2006 1:23 PM


Re: No Dice
Yes, I agree, no concession to the impotent. But I think you are being unrealistic.

I disagree. Coming from a family almost entirely of educators, in every education situation I have ever participated in as a student and teacher, you can get more learning and progress at a faster pace by simply enumerating and raising expectations.

As far as I understand the situation, the high school curriculum is jam-packed as it is.

I also disagree and other than some poor excuses from Dover biology teaches about why they cannot teach more in the classroom I challange you to find any substantial evidence to support this that does not rely upon the temperament of the classroom.

Right now our standards play to the lowest common denominator to make sure that no one is 'left behind'. A better approach would be to target a level of learning and knowledge retention that is slightly above average and adjust that upward as time goes on. Expect more, get more.

When it comes down to it, what message do we want our HS students leaving with? All life originates from one common ancestor? Or that natural selection is a crucial factor governing the response of organisms to our environment?

And I am saying that it is rediculous to have to pick and choose. They should know both.

The former question has important philosophical implications and I guess is crucial to geosciences. But I am more concerned with the latter question, since this governs most of evolutionary and biomedical research, particular of rapidly evolving bacteria and viruses. I'd rather have our doctors capable of curing diseases than have our philosophers slightly more knowledgable about the world.

I guess I would need to see a better argument of why you think that either of those concepts is more useful. I guess I can agree that there seems to be much more visible application of knowing process but common ancestry is fundamental to understanding the very foundation of biology. Yes you are right that you can probably get by understanding the mechanics but if you don't HAVE to give up the fundamentals then why would you?

It just seems like your proposition really is, and no offense, one big rediculous and ignorant concession.


Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)
This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by platypus, posted 12-07-2006 1:23 PM platypus has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by RAZD, posted 05-31-2007 4:30 PM Jazzns has responded

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 2165 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 31 of 116 (402865)
05-30-2007 12:16 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by EraqiDberg
12-08-2006 8:03 AM


Re: No Dice
Duplicate post. See below

Edited by Jazzns, : No reason given.


Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)
This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by EraqiDberg, posted 12-08-2006 8:03 AM EraqiDberg has not yet responded

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 2165 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 32 of 116 (402866)
05-30-2007 12:17 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by EraqiDberg
12-08-2006 8:03 AM


Re: No Dice
This is called irreducible complexity. If the evolution process occurred so slow, most creatures wouldn't survive.

Actually, genetic processes have been shown to create irreducibly complex systems. I realize you are new to this forum. Perhaps you could take some time to look around and figure out how to make a new topic. The administrators of this forum like to keep topics focues. I would be willing to participate with you in a topic about irreducible complexity and how evolution CAN and DOES create irreducibly complex structures.

What evolved first, the animals eyes to see the prey, teeth to chew the prey, stomach to digest the prey, ect.? and when did the
prey evolve?

The biggest mental block most IDers have seems to be that they cannot concieve of parallel development. That seems to be the trouble here.

The most basic predator and prey systems are in single cellular life where you can both be predator and prey at the same time. Evolving light sensitivity makes you both a better predator and better at evading becoming prey. Digestion is just the funamental requirement of metablism which all life must have to even be considered life. In fact, I can probably be safe in saying that 'digesting' was the very first thing that had to evolve.

Again, all of these things can be best discussed in a more focused topic.

Darwin's theory was inspired before he realized how complex cells are. It is outdated and should not be taught in school.

In fact no one teaches Darwin's theory in school because 150 years of progressed has been achieved and the only reason people still call it Darwin's theory is because he was the first person to write it down in a significant way. Darwin was wrong not because evolution is false, but because he had incomplete knowledge of how evolution works.

Do you really believe that this very moment scientists are still using ONLY the works of Darwin to do science? If so, don't you think that would be a little rediculous?


Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)
This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by EraqiDberg, posted 12-08-2006 8:03 AM EraqiDberg has not yet responded

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 2165 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 34 of 116 (403065)
05-31-2007 5:35 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by RAZD
05-31-2007 4:30 PM


Re: No Dice
The issue of classroom disruption is a very challanging problem but I am not for making high-school optional. At the very least, kids who have no intention or desire to learn acadmic topics should be made to learn a trade and basic life skills.

I do agree that not everyone needs science and math. That being said I do believe that MOST people need to have those skills. As many people as you can educate effectivly, you should. This business of guaranteeing that every kid up to age 18 has the same exact education though is doing nothing but destroying our society.

I went to school with the largest gang population in the district. I was often shelterd by being in enriched or honors classes but when I was mixed in with "ghetto" kids, the successfull teachers were able to teach the class without pandering to the behavior problems. It took a very special kind of teacher to manage that but it is not a skill that cannot be learned if we both put more value in our educators and expect them to rise to the occasion.

The problem is right now we treat teachers like domestic workers instead of professionals. IMO teachers should be one of the most respected and revered professions in our society. Yet my wife is "part-time", works over 60 hours a week, has her masters degree, and makes less than I did when I was a bus-boy at a hotel. If she did not love the work she did, I have no doubt that she would quit immediatly.

ps - always meant to ask, is that a Bach trumpet (and yours?), I've just been listening to Harry James, "Keep em Flyin" with Glen Miller & his Orchestra.

That is not my horn no although I do own a Bach for when I played indoors or a concert setting. My main horn though is a Maynard Ferguson which I abosolutly love. It is so light and brassy. I have been told though it is not very good in large group setting because I stick out like a sore thumb.

Right now they are collecting dust unfortunatly. I gave up music for a more practical carear.


Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)
This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by RAZD, posted 05-31-2007 4:30 PM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by RAZD, posted 06-01-2007 5:26 PM Jazzns has not yet responded

  
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