Spherical Issues

IamJoseph:What are the coordinates for the center of the surface of the earth?The earth is an actual place. It has an actual surface.Thus, where is the actual center of the actual surface of the actual earth?Edited by Rrhain, : No reason given.

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Rrhain

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Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Nice try, IamJoseph, but those are my questions to you. Let's try again, shall we?What are the coordinates for the center of the surface of the earth?The earth is an actual place. It has an actual surface.Thus, where is the actual center of the actual surface of the actual earth?

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Rrhain

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Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Taz writes:

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Any middle schooler who has taken geometry can tell you that a point does not have a center. A point is dimensionless. The only people who think a point is a circle and so it must have a circle are people who don't have a clue what they are talking about.

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Now, hold on. While a middle-schooler might say that, someone with more advanced knowledge of mathematics would not be so hasty.A point is a degenerate circle. The equation of a circle is given by:(x-a)² + (y-b)² = r²There is no reason that r cannot equal 0. In such a case, the center and the locus that is the circumference are the same: The point (a, b).There are other, similarly degenerate forms of other conic sections (degenerate parabolas are straight lines, degenerate hyperbolas are intersecting straight lines.)But, if the radius of the circle is non-zero, then the locus that is the perimeter are not connected to the center of the circle and thus, none of the points on the circumference are the center.Now, let's see if IamJoseph can answer the real questions:What are the coordinates for the center of the surface of the earth?The earth is an actual place. It has an actual surface.Thus, where is the actual center of the actual surface of the actual earth?

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Rrhain

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Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

None of that is an answer, IamJoseph. Let's try it again, shall we?What are the coordinates for the center of the surface of the earth?The earth is an actual place. It has an actual surface.Thus, where is the actual center of the actual surface of the actual earth?

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Rrhain

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Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

None of that is an answer, IamJoseph. Let's try it again, shall we?What are the coordinates for the center of the surface of the earth?The earth is an actual place. It has an actual surface.Thus, where is the actual center of the actual surface of the actual earth?

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Rrhain

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Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

None of that is an answer, IamJoseph. Let's try it again, shall we?What are the coordinates for the center of the surface of the earth?The earth is an actual place. It has an actual surface.Thus, where is the actual center of the actual surface of the actual earth?

None of that is an answer, IamJoseph. Let's try it again, shall we?What are the coordinates for the center of the surface of the earth?The earth is an actual place. It has an actual surface.Thus, where is the actual center of the actual surface of the actual earth?

None of that is an answer, IamJoseph. Let's try it again, shall we?What are the coordinates for the center of the surface of the earth?The earth is an actual place. It has an actual surface.Thus, where is the actual center of the actual surface of the actual earth?

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Rrhain

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Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Taz responds to me:

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You and I both know that's not what he meant.

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Maybe it's just ICANT rubbing off on me and the threat of a quote-mined piece of someone else's writing looming over me that's making me skittish.But you're right...trying to enforce formalism upon him is probably a bad idea.

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Rrhain

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Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

ICANT writes:

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In relation to me the center of the surface of the earth is whereever I am at on the surface of the earth at the moment.

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Please correct me if I am wrong.

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Why in relation to you? Why not in relation to anybody else?The center of an object is usually defined in terms of itself. F'rinstance, the center of a sphere is defined in terms of the sphere, not a person outside the sphere. The locus that we call the "center" of a cone is defined in terms of the cone.Too, we have to orient you. It would seem that you are referring to your own place because all the rest of the sphere spreads out equally around you, but that assumes you are normal to the surface. Why should we assume that?And if we have to attach all of these arbitrary orientations onto it, then that's a pretty good sign that we're not at the center. After all, why is your location the center and not mine?This is part of the reason that we say the universe has no center: It looks to me like everything is expanding away from me just as it looks to you like everything is expanding away from you. Well, it can't be both, therefore it must be neither.

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Rrhain

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Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

None of that is an answer, IamJoseph. Let's try it again, shall we?What are the coordinates for the center of the surface of the earth?The earth is an actual place. It has an actual surface.Thus, where is the actual center of the actual surface of the actual earth?

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Rrhain

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Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

ICANT responds to me:

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This is part of the reason that we say the universe has no center: It looks to me like everything is expanding away from me just as it looks to you like everything is expanding away from you. Well, it can't be both, therefore it must be neither.

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I did not mention anything about the universe.

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The surface of the earth is not expanding like the universe.

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I did qualify my statement.

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In relation to me.

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But the process is generalizable. If it looks like the center to me over here and it looks like the center for the exact same reason to you over there, then the only outcome is that we are both wrong and there is no center.The surface of a sphere has no center. A center requires a boundary and the surface of a sphere has no boundary.

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The same applies in relation to you or anyone else.

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Which is precisely why neither of us are at the center. We can't both be at it.

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Rrhain

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Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

None of that is an answer, IamJoseph. Let's try it again, shall we?What are the coordinates for the center of the surface of the earth?The earth is an actual place. It has an actual surface.Thus, where is the actual center of the actual surface of the actual earth?

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Rrhain

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Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

ICANT writes:

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I think that would be impossible as I can't get outside of the universe to stand on the surface of the universe.

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Ahem. You exist in the three-dimensional space of the universe, yes?Then you are standing on the surface of the universe.A three-dimensional object has a two-dimensional surface.A four-dimensional object has a three-dimensional surface.

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In my avatar there are the three proposed shapes of the universe if I was standing on the surface of any of them and I looked up I would see nothing.

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Excuse me..."up?" What is this direction you mention: "Up"? There is no "up" on a two-dimensional surface.I highly recommend Flatland and the pseudo-sequel, Sphereland. In Flatland, the main character ("A. Square") is a two-dimensional being. From his point of view, there is no such thing as "up." He is visited by a sphere. The sphere, viewing Flatland from the third dimension, sees all of Flatland as a surface. But for A. Square, what is a "surface" is actually an "interior." His internal organs are not a "surface" but are "inside."The same thing extends to higher dimensions. The "surface" of a hypershere is a three-dimensional construct. Just as an inhabitant of Flatland would view a sphere passing through the "surface" as a point that would expand into a circle and then retreats to a point, an inhabitant of Sphereland would view a hypersphere passing through the "surface" as a point that expands into a sphere and then retreats to a point again.

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Would not the universe still be inside of this inflated pea?

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Why don't you read your own source and find out? Pages 10-12.

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Would the surface of the pea be the outer limits of the universe?

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No, because there is no "outside." Read your own source. Page 12.

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I know that is not the picture that is presented. But unless the universe was on the outside of the pea it has to be.

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Incorrect. The reason we use a balloon as an analogy is because it is easy to visualize, not because it is a perfect two-dimensional reduction of the universe. The math that describes the geometry of the universe is extremely complicated.But if you had read your own source (page 8), you would know that.

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Rrhain

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Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

ICANT responds to cavediver:

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I am sitting in my house.

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The universe is not analogous to your house. Your house has a boundary, for example. That's what allows it to have a surface. The surface of an object is the locus of its boundary points.The universe does not have a boundary. Therefore, it doesn't have a surface.It IS the surface.

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Rrhain

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Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.