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Author
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Topic: What specific evidence would people require to believe in God's existence?
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ringo
Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 9 of 222 (323417)
06-19-2006 5:25 PM
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Reply to: Message 1 by mjfloresta
06-15-2006 12:21 AM
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Suppose a man came to your door and said, "Hello. My name is John Smith. Here's my driver's license and passport and two other forms of ID. Here are references from thirty people who can vouch for my identity and character. "I live in that blue house on the corner. Come over any time and see me. If I'm not home, my wife will show you the pictures of our vacation in Mexico. "I work at the Marmaduke Building. Feel free to drop by my office any time. If I'm not there, the intern will show you pictures of me at the company picnic, the Christmas party and last year's awards dinner. "Here's my home phone, office phone, cell phone and fax numbers and my email address." That's the kind of effort a person makes when he wants to convince you that he is who he says he is. But extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Suppose "Mr. Smith" told you he was the former President of Angola, the Pope's personal emissary to Beijing and a three-time Nobel Prize winner for physics and literature. What kind of evidence would you require to back up those claims?
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| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1 by mjfloresta, posted 06-15-2006 12:21 AM | | mjfloresta has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 12 by Chiroptera, posted 06-19-2006 6:09 PM | | ringo has seen this message but not replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 110 of 222 (399548)
05-06-2007 2:06 PM
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Reply to: Message 108 by Phat
05-06-2007 12:52 PM
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Re: Gullibility versus Skepticism
Phat writes: Other people could, in my opinion, actually have an Angel visit them and they still would attempt to explain it away. How would a visit from an angel be evidence of God's existence?
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| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 108 by Phat, posted 05-06-2007 12:52 PM | | Phat has not replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 115 of 222 (400526)
05-14-2007 2:52 PM
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Reply to: Message 113 by Phat
05-14-2007 2:25 AM
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Re: Touched by an Angel or conned by a carny?
Phat writes: How would a visit from an angel be evidence of God's existence? Perhaps it would be a powerful suggestion that there is a realm we know nothing about. Microbiology is a realm we used to know nothing about. Are bacteria evidence of God's existence? Extraterrestrial life (if any) is a realm we know nothing about. If we discover little green men in space, are they evidence of God's existence? How would you tell the difference (if any) between little green men and angels? Our own minds are a realm we know little enough about. If we discover that angels are a figment of our imaginations, would that be evidence of God's existence? Or would any of those discoveries make God's existence less probable?
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| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 113 by Phat, posted 05-14-2007 2:25 AM | | Phat has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 116 by viewfromthetop, posted 07-27-2007 7:35 PM | | ringo has seen this message but not replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 131 of 222 (413634)
07-31-2007 6:25 PM
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Reply to: Message 130 by Grizz
07-31-2007 6:07 PM
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Grizz writes: If one were actually seen, it would not be a belief, it would be a fact. There's a reason why the saying is, "Seeing is believing." Seeing something certainly does not mean it's a fact. To me, personally witnessing a miracle (or a UFO) would be very poor evidence for miracles (or extraterrestrial life). Our senses are too easily fooled. I've seen rabbits pulled out of hats, ladies sawn in half, flowers pulled out of sleeves.... I don't "believe" for one split second that those events actually happened.
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| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 130 by Grizz, posted 07-31-2007 6:07 PM | | Grizz has not replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 146 of 222 (416717)
08-17-2007 1:06 PM
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Reply to: Message 144 by Phat
08-17-2007 3:52 AM
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Re: My path from Atheism to faith
Phat writes: If the experience which you have had was valid and ifGod is actually real, nothing on earth will ever be able to take that away from you! Patently false. The path from atheism to faith is a two-way street and there are at least as many people going in the opposite direction. (Not everybody reaches the destination of atheism, so your condition of "if God is real" is still satisfied.) Too many people seize on the first explanation of an "experience", park their brain at the church door and - as you say - nothing can change their minds. But don't kid yourself that that's the only possible outcome.
“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels -------------
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| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 144 by Phat, posted 08-17-2007 3:52 AM | | Phat has not replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Re: My path from Atheism to faith
georgeculolias writes: Let’s say it was somehow proven that God exists to a doubter, that doesn't want to believe. Now he had better do what God says or else. Or else what? Only a very petty god would punish somebody who chose not to toe the party line. So why wouldn't a benevolent, reasonable God give us ironclad proof of His existence and let us thumb our noses at Him if we so choose?
“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels -------------
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ringo
Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 160 of 222 (416833)
08-18-2007 2:41 AM
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Reply to: Message 159 by pbee
08-18-2007 2:23 AM
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Re: My path from Atheism to faith
pbee writes: The accountability accompanied with absolute knowledge of God would strip humans of any possibility for change. But if God is omnipotent and benevolent, there's no need for any accountability at all.
Anyone facing destruction by the hand of God under that moment will be wicked in his heart and deserving of the consequences. - So, there will be no innocent by-standers either. You're describing a petty tyrant, neither omnipotent (able to forgive) nor benevolent (willing to forgive).
“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels -------------
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 159 by pbee, posted 08-18-2007 2:23 AM | | pbee has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 165 by pbee, posted 08-18-2007 11:06 PM | | ringo has replied | | | Message 166 by pbee, posted 08-19-2007 12:19 AM | | ringo has seen this message but not replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Re: My path from Atheism to faith
georgeculolias writes: God proving his existence to the doubters would only prove that his own children couldn't find their own God given nature without indisputable proof. That doesn't follow at all. A father makes a special effort to find the child who is lost. That's not a negative reflection on the ones who aren't lost, nor does it suggest that the father is "weak".
We are not weak and neither is he, so there can be no proof that will EVER satisfy a doubter. That doesn't follow either. If the father isn't weak, he can find his lost child.
“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels -------------
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
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ringo
Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Re: My path from Atheism to faith
georgeculolias writes: God hasn't lost us, his children have lost him and decided of their own freewill to be afraid of their God given nature. Who lost whom is irrelevant. A father goes out to find the lost child. A good shepherd leaves the ninety-nine and goes out to find the lost one.
I don't understand why you don't think it follows, God proving his existence to the doubters would only prove that his own children couldn't find their own God given nature without indisputable proof. The doubters are His children too. Why would God favour the children who are safe at home over those who need Him more? Why would putting His efforts where they are needed most diminish His devotion to those who need Him less?
“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels -------------
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
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ringo
Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 167 of 222 (417008)
08-19-2007 12:50 AM
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Reply to: Message 165 by pbee
08-18-2007 11:06 PM
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Re: My path from Atheism to faith
pbee writes: Such feeble attempts to discredit God.... I don't know where you're getting that. I made a simple statement and your sermon didn't address it at all:
quote:
If God is omnipotent and benevolent, there's no need for any accountability at all.
If God is omnipotent, He doesn't need our help. He doesn't need anything from us. If God is benevolent, He won't make demands of us. He'll make suggestions for our benefit. So, there's no reason for us to be accountable to God.
“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels -------------
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 165 by pbee, posted 08-18-2007 11:06 PM | | pbee has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 168 by pbee, posted 08-19-2007 12:53 AM | | ringo has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 170 of 222 (417019)
08-19-2007 1:24 AM
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Reply to: Message 168 by pbee
08-19-2007 12:53 AM
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Re: My path from Atheism to faith
pbee writes: doesn't the omnipotent and benevolent argument belong in a neighboring thread? Not necessarily. Since you concede that we are not accountable to God, maybe you'll concede also that He is accountable to us, in a way. If He wanted us to believe in His existence, the onus would be on Him to convince us, to produce evidence that is satisfactory to us.
“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels -------------
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 168 by pbee, posted 08-19-2007 12:53 AM | | pbee has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 172 by pbee, posted 08-19-2007 2:35 AM | | ringo has replied | | | Message 189 by Phat, posted 11-02-2013 6:34 AM | | ringo has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 173 of 222 (417042)
08-19-2007 2:48 AM
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Reply to: Message 172 by pbee
08-19-2007 2:35 AM
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pbee writes: I beleive that God devised a fool proof system aimed at protecting these things from the undeserving. Define "undeserving". Remember, the topic is "What specific evidence would people require to believe in God's existence?" It isn't about making up any lame old apologetic to excuse the status quo. Fact: There are people who don't believe in God. Question: What evidence would they require? What evidence might they reasonably ask for? Do they need to pre-believe in order to be "deserving"?
“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels -------------
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 172 by pbee, posted 08-19-2007 2:35 AM | | pbee has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 174 by Phat, posted 08-19-2007 2:58 AM | | ringo has seen this message but not replied | | | Message 176 by pbee, posted 08-19-2007 3:13 AM | | ringo has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 178 of 222 (417047)
08-19-2007 3:38 AM
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Reply to: Message 176 by pbee
08-19-2007 3:13 AM
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pbee writes: God doesn't turn down sincere prayers. Define "sincere prayers". Is a request for evidence on an Internet forum less sincere than an intonation in a cathedral? We have people asking for evidence of God's existence and we have apologists making excuses for those requests being denied.
Do they need to pre-believe in order to be "deserving"? No, Jesus demonstrated that. So you are making an attempt at defining "deserving". If only you put as much effort into thinking about the questions as you do into evading them.
“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels -------------
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 176 by pbee, posted 08-19-2007 3:13 AM | | pbee has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 179 by pbee, posted 08-19-2007 4:27 AM | | ringo has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 180 of 222 (417092)
08-19-2007 12:23 PM
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Reply to: Message 179 by pbee
08-19-2007 4:27 AM
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pbee writes: First of all, stating the obvious, the internet does not equate prayer. Why not? What makes prayer prayer? (Probably a different topic, so don't get too hung up on it here. Just think about it.)
Since when are humans responsible for proving God's existence? I'm not saying they are. I'm saying that there are humans - on this very thread **ahem** - making excuses for God not proving His existence.
And who is in a position to determine what requests are approved and denied? The people who ask for evidence are in a position to ask why their requests are denied.
As for "deserving", It is doubtful that any human would possess the authority to define such conditions(deserving), let alone the fools who would think otherwise. You're the one who used the term to divide the deserving from the undeserving. You can't just run away from your own terminology by claiming that nobody knows which is which. If you don't know who's "undeserving", you can't know whether or not there's anybody in that category. The topic is "What specific evidence would people require to believe in God's existence?" - not "What specific excuses can you make for the lack of evidence?"
“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels -------------
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 179 by pbee, posted 08-19-2007 4:27 AM | | pbee has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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georgeculolias writes: I asked for evidence of Gods existence, after I opened my mind to the possibility that there was a God. You're misrepresenting people very badly here. I, for one, have never, ever, ever closed my mind to the possibility that there is a God. I have lived much of my life with the virtual certainty that there is a God. That has nothing to do with the topic. Even people who do firmly believe in God can be interested in evidence.
He did give me evidence of his existence; of course I could doubt the evidence. And of course you should doubt any evidence. All evidence must be tested.
There will never be proof either way, as that takes away freewill and choice. Nonsense. I have proof that the government and the police force exist, yet I still have free will to choose whether or not I obey them.
By believing what I was shown and having faith, my life has improved and I'm happier. To me that is evidence in itself but to a doubter that means nothing. I'm much happier as a doubter than I ever was as a blind believer. You'll find it's the blind believers who are in constant fear that their beliefs will be shattered.
“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels -------------
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
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