The bible and homosexuality: Round 3

Phatboy writes:

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Anyway, does anyone know a gay couple that loves God with ALL of their heart, soul, mind, and strength?

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You say that as if it would be a shock for anybody to say yes.Surely you aren't implying that gay people are all atheists, are you?Haven't you been paying attention? Bishop Gene Robinson is gay and in a committed relationship. Would they not fit your criteria? He's a bishop for the Episcopalian church. Are you saying that church leaders do not love god with all of their heart, soul, mind, and strength?

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I maintain that so called gay churches usually focus on the RIGHT to be gay rather than the RESPONSIBILITY to love God before all else.

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And you make this claim because of what, precisely? When was the last time you attended an MCC service?

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Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

svonnah_la_fay writes:

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Jesus rewrote a lot of the rules

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Incorrect. Jesus directly states the opposite:Matthew 5:18: For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.Jesus didn't rewrite a single word of the law. If you truly wish to follow Jesus, then you need to keep the Law of Moses.

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However, some rules did not change, including the ones of Leviticus.

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Like eating shellfish? I hope you've been keeping kosher.Of course, Leviticus doesn't say anything about homosexuality. Temple prostitution, yeah, but I don't know of any gay temple prostitutes.

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Engaging in intercourse with only one person for your entire life is not only good for a partnership, but also to prevent the spread of deadly disease, such as STD's, AIDS, etc.

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And what does being gay have to do with this. Monogamous homosexuality is identical to monogamous heterosexuality. The sexes of the individuals involved have nothing to do with it.

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Also, everything has a purpose.

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Ergo, gay people have a purpose. And no, it is not to be persecuted.

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Homosexuality is not practical,

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And yet gay people have no problem having sex, proving your statement wrong by simple inspection. In fact, there isn't anything gay people do that straight people don't.

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and neither is it safe.

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And your justification of this statement is what, precisely? Surely you aren't going to mention AIDS, are you? You do know that HIV is transmitted primarily through heterosexual sex, yes? That worldwide, three-quarters of all HIV transmission occurs through heterosexual sex. The next most common vector is IV drug use.And, of course, female-female sex is the safest sex you can have with another person. If STDs are your standard of being closest to god, then lesbians are the chosen people.

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I understand that some people may be born 'that way', and God doesn't forbid BEING homosexual, He just forbids ACTS of homosexuality.

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No, he doesn't. He doesn't say anything about it. Temple prostitution, yes, but the only people I seem to find having sex in church are Catholics, not gays.

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Hope I have helped!

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Nope, not in the slightest.

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Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

Phatboy writes:

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Am I that unloveable or unloving? What did I do?

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You said this:

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All that I maintain is that if a person loves God first, allowing His Spirit to fill them, they will be less concerned with their "right" to have sex with another.

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In other words, you can "be" gay, you just can't actually be gay. You can have all the feelings you want and that isn't wrong, but if you try to do anything that actually expresses your sexuality and makes you feel connected to another human being emotionally and spiritually through a physical act, then you're just asking for too much.

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I am not attacking homosexuality

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Yes, you are. You are saying straight people get to ritualize and consecrate their relationships but gay people need to get over that silly notion of bonding with another person.

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I just do not see the need to marry as being of high priority.

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Prove it. Tell us how you've written to your church about how marriage is a horrible thing and should be abolished.Double standard, Phatboy. If straight people get to do it and it is important for them and should be celebrated and consecrated, then it necessarily goes the same for gay people or you've got a double standard.

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Love God and desire holiness and love from His Spirit, and nobody will attack your orientations....but if you trumpet about with the "right" to marry, you will be scrutinized.

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Why do you hate gay people so? You don't do this to straight people.

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Why are you putting me on the hate list.

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Because you hate.People who didn't hate wouldn't treat gay people differently and you do.Prove me wrong. Tell me about this "scrutinization" of straight people you are inflicting upon gays.

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Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

PecosGeorge writes:

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Don't bother to tell me about couples who cannot have children because of circumstances such as illness, etal. It has nothing to do with what sex was 'invented' to do.

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I hope, then, that you are mute.You see, your vocal chords were "invented" to keep objects out of your lungs. Your ability to cough is because you can close off your vocal chords, build up pressure, and then expel the air violently. They were not "invented" to allow you to speak.If you truly believe that we should only use things for what they were "invented" for, then you would take a vow of silence right here and now and not engage in that evil abomination of speech.And you'd never use your penis for sex, either, because it's primary purpose is as the exit from the bladder during urination.And I seriously hope you never suffer extreme nausea, because they'll deliver the compazine to keep the dry heaves at bay rectally...which is an exit, not an entry, right?How strange it is that you seem to have no problem with a bodily organ serving double-duty except when it comes to things that trigger your squick factor.

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Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

Phatboy responds to me:

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Are you saying that church leaders do not love god with all of their heart, soul, mind, and strength?

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Yes. My assertion and accusation, based upon limited personal observation, suggests that many of the "enlightened" church leaders present a social relevant message rather than a historic "yahweh or the highway" one.

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You misunderstand. I'm not talking about some generic "church leader." I'm talking about Bishop Robinson, personally. Are you seriously claiming that he, specifically, who has given his life to the church, and his husband do not love god with all of their heart, soul, mind, and strength?You seem to have set up an unwinnable situation. You claim that there are no gay couples who love god with all of their heart, soul, mind, and strength and then when you are shown a couple who fits your criteria to a T, you claim that they don't really do so with no other justification than your original assertion that gay people can't love god.Simple question: Does Bishop Robinson love god with all of his heart, soul, mind, and strength?

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Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

PecosGeorge responds to me:

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since I am writing this and not speaking it......I'm ok. Right?

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There was more to my response than just your voice, remember. That you've managed to keep your vocal chords pristine and never use them for something they weren't "invented" to do doesn't get you off the hook since so many other parts of your anatomy weren't "invented" to do the things they are commonly used for.Of course, your fingers weren't invented to type, either, so you've got a problem there.

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Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

riVeRraT responds to contracycle:

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Two police officers have just been found guilty in the UK for committing rape, in which the woman did not scream becuase she did not want to wake her children and have them see what was going on.

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In a partirarchic society in which a woman may be seen as polluted or spoiled even by non-consensual sex, then they may not scream because the result of someone coming to help would be ostracism, in the long run.

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This sort of criteria basically gives men a free licence to rape, and is exactly the sort of thing we criticised the Taliban for.

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Why do I have to spell it out for you?

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Because you are simply not understanding the responses made to you.

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The moral of the story is, if a woman enjoys rape, then she wants to get raped, and she should be stoned.

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See, here's the part you don't seem to understand.Ignoring the completely stupid idea that anybody enjoys actual, honest-to-goodness, we're not playacting rape, the only criterion used to determine if the woman "enjoyed" this rape is whether or not she didn't scream.That's it. If you don't scream, then you must have enjoyed it.You were just given an example of a reason why a woman might not scream while she was being raped.But by your logic, she should be stoned to death because, since she didn't scream, she must have enjoyed it.Are you truly incapable of understanding this? Just because you don't scream doesn't mean you like it. Are you so enamored with, "The Bible says it so it must be true!" that you cannot see the truth?

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Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

riVeRraT writes:

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All sin is enjoyable for the flesh.

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No, you can't have it both ways. Either gay sex is disgusting or it's pleasurable. It can't be both.

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Then you should thank God your father wasn't gay, otherwise you wouldn't be here right now.

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Since when did being gay mean you couldn't have children?

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Before I even knew what sex was, I had 2 gay people try to get me involved in gay sex.

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Stop right there.From your description, your swim coach wasn't gay. He was a pedophile. Surely we have hashed this out for you often enough for you to remember that pedophilia is not equivalent to homosexuality and that one cannot infer the sexual orientation of a pedophile by looking at the sex of the children who are molested.Overwhelmingly, pedophiles are straight. Male pedophiles who molest little boys aren't doing it because the children are male. They are doing it because they are children. Children are androgynous. Adult males have body hair, their penises are fully developed, their voices have cracked. None of these things have happened to boys. If it weren't for the presence of the penis and testicles, you'd be hard pressed to distinguish a boy from a girl and that is precisely the point. A pedophile, in general, isn't attracted to the sex of the child. They are attracted to the child.In short, riVeRraT, you have no idea if these people were gay.

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Another guy when I was a little older, who was married and claimed to be Mr.Georgia, made a pass at me. We were alone, and he could have easily raped me, but he respected my opinion, but not until he first tried to convince me.

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Excuse me? "Could have easily raped you"? Where on earth does this come from? You are equating getting hit on with attempted rape? Congratulations, riVeRraT. You've just made every heterosexual male a potential rapist.I suggest you get yourself to a therapist post haste. You have some very twisted notions of sexuality.

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When you don't know any better, these kinds of things can happen.

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You seriously think someone could turn you gay? With just the right cajoling, you could be made to enjoy something you find repugnant?You don't get to have it both ways, riVeRraT.

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I know other people who have decided to live a gay life because of what happened to them with women.

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No, you don't. You're lying. Nobody becomes gay because of a "bad experience" with the opposite sex.Given the description you have had, it would appear that you're actually gay but instead became straight because of the "bad experiences" you had with other men. You are so emotionally destroyed by mn that it made you change your sexual desires. Your hatred toward men made you never want to have one again.So tell us, riVeRraT: What sort of man turns you on? Do you go for the big, burly bears or for the twinks? Does a man in a suit get you going or maybe you have a thing for uniforms.

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Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

The Dread Dormammu responds to me:

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Given the description you have had, it would appear that you're actually gay but instead became straight because of the "bad experiences" you had with other men. You are so emotionally destroyed by mn that it made you change your sexual desires. Your hatred toward men made you never want to have one again.

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So tell us, riVeRraT: What sort of man turns you on? Do you go for the big, burly bears or for the twinks? Does a man in a suit get you going or maybe you have a thing for uniforms.

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Rrhain I am appaled by what I have just read!

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Good. You're supposed to be.Now you know exactly what it feels like to be gay in this country and have such ridiculously stupid arguments put to you every day. The assumption is that there is something wrong with being gay, that there is a fundamental disconnect with reality among gay people, that gay people are somehow denying their inner heterosexual.I am simply taking riVeRraT's comments to their logical conclusion. People are gay because they had a bad experience with a member of the opposite sex. If that's true, then gay people must really be straight inside and if they were to just be honest with themselves, they'd admit it. They would have preferences for the types of opposite sex partners they'd like to have.So if it's OK to assume that gay people are really straight people deep down inside who are gay simply because they were molested as children or had someone they found sexually unattractive make a pass at them, then the same must be true for some straight people: They're really gay but are straight simply because they were molested as children or had someone they found sexually unattractive make a pass at them.RiVeRraT truly has no comprehension of just how obnoxious and offensive his claim is. And if you find it appalling to be asked what sort of person you find to be sexually attractive, then you don't really get it, either. RiVeRraT is saying that gay people are mentally defective. I am simply turning it around on him.

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Perhaps you meant them in a joking fashion but if so it was NOT funny.

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Who said I was joking? He claims that people are gay because of a "bad experience." Well, he had a "bad experience" or two and he turned out straight. By his logic, he must really be gay. Therefore, I want to explore that with him and help him come out of the closet. The first step to overcoming a problem is admitting you have one, so let him be honest: What kind of man does he find sexually attractive?He's the one saying that if it weren't for Christ, he might have succumbed to other men finding him attractive and doing what normal people do when they find other people attractive: Approach them and state their attractions (how psychologically damaging! If another person of the same sex hits on me, then I must actually be gay!) He's the one saying that he might have become gay. If that's true, then there must be something about other men that he finds sexually arousing since being gay means having a sexually positive rection to people of the same sex.So what is it? What does he find sexually attractive about other men?And if there is nothing that he finds sexually attractive about other men, then he could never be induced into being gay and his entire argument falls flat. Gay people are not gay because they are afraid of the opposite sex. They are not gay because of a "bad experience." They cannot be "recruited."And make no mistake about it: That is riVeRraT's claim: Gay people are after your children.Do you not see how utterly disgusting his attitude is?

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It has always been my policy never to speculate about the sexual orentation of others. If someone wishes to volenteer such information that's fine but this sort of post is, frankly, offensive.

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And what was riVeRraT's? Manna from heaven? Do you honestly not understand what he was saying? He basically was denying that gay people could possibly have any hold on sanity and still claim to be gay. That there is something wrong with being gay. That the only reason a person could possibly be gay is because there is something broken inside.In other words, gays are sub-human.He deserves to have the same attitude reflected back upon him.

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Did you actualy think that posting that sort of comment would prompt a response that would be usefull to this discussion in any way?

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From riVeRraT? Hard to say. He is incapable of understanding his own arguments. Logic doesn't work with him. That leaves shock. Eventually something will get through to him to convince him that he literally doesn't know what he's talking about.

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It might seem like I'm singleing you out, and I suppose I am, but that is because I think that you, more than others, should be able to make your points without resorting to what is essentualy name calling.

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This does not mean that I think it is name calling to call someone gay.

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Yes, it does. If there is nothing wrong with being gay, then there is nothing wrong with being called gay. Even if it is erroneous to do so. I'm a man. If someone calls me a woman, I don't take offense at that because there is nothing wrong with being a woman. In fact, I start playing it up at that point because they obviously think there is something wrong with being a woman and I then want to show them that I would be quite happy to be a woman. They're the ones with the problem and they are the ones that need to get over it.

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But it IS name calling to openly speculate about their sexual preferances,

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No, it isn't. How on earth do you ever get up the nerve to ask somebody out without speculating about their sexual orientation?

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not to mention very poor taste.

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Does the term "context" mean nothing to you? Did you not read riVeRraT's comments that prompted me to respond? The only problem here is riVeRraT's homophobia and presumption that gay people are defective. He has come up with a line of reasoning that, if applied to him, means that he's gay.If he can't handle that, if he is absolutely insistent upon the fact that his "bad experiences" with men didn't make him straight, then perhaps he should reconsider his noisome and odious claim that gay people are gay because they had a "bad experience."

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I for one get very upset when I hear homophobic remarks thrown around by fundimentalists, but the only way to respond to such remarks is with a rational discussion

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No, rational discussion doesn't work with a fundamentalist. That's why they are fundamentalists in the first place: They are incapable of thinking in a rational manner. The only thing they understand is emotion.

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Rrhain I know that you are far better than this and I hope you will take the opportunity to apologise to riverrat.

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Oh give me a break. He claims that gay people are mentally defective, sexually abused, broken people and my rubbing his nose in it is somehow the problem?Sorry. I refuse to apologize for riVeRraT's homophobia and irrationality. He gets what he deserves.

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Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

riVeRraT responds to me:

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Go back and read all my posts on this subject. If you still don't get it, I can't help you.

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Oh, I get it, all right.You're a sexist, egotistical, lying, hypocritical bigot (10 points for those that know where that phrase comes from.) Women like to be raped. Gay people are mental defectives who are after your children. Jews are afraid that Christians might be right.There is absolutely nobody that you do not look down on in contempt. There is no love in your heart.

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Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

riVeRraT responds to me:

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Thats awesome rhain, you've repeated yourself for the 1000th time.

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Thanks. I owe it all to you. I couldn't have repeated myself 1000 times if you hadn't been parroting the same discredited bull over and over again. It's amazing how you never seem to learn. No matter how many times you're shown to be wrong, you're back in 20 minutes repeating the same lies as if nothing had happened.Very impressive.

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Go back and answer your own questions

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Oh, I already have but I'm too much of a gentleman to say them here. Besides, I don't think you'd like it if I spilled your secrets, now would you?

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I told you, I'm through with you

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If you're through with me, why do you keep responding? This is the third or fourth time you've said that and you keep coming back for more. Why is that?Answer the question: What kind of man turns your crank? You're the one saying that you could have "slipped" and become gay, so there must be something about men you find sexually attractive. What is it?

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you are dishonest, insulting, and a liar. You even admitted it.

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Dishonest? That's your department. Liar? You, again. But insulting, I'll share that one.After all, it's only directed at those who have insulted others in the first place. It's intended to show them what it's like to be the recipient of the bile that they spew. If you don't like it, perhaps you should consider what it is you're putting out (see, that's that "rhetoric" thing that you so despise.)Women like to be raped, gays are child molesters, Jews are scared. Yeah, those are loving things. I can feel it all the way over here in California. You have such a warm feeling toward your fellow man and your heart bleeds when they hurt.By the way, that's "sarcasm." It's also part of that "rhetoric" thing you detest so much.

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Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

riVeRraT responds to me...wait...I thought he was through with me...why is he responding? Ah well, he goes on:

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Oh, I already have but I'm too much of a gentleman to say them here. Besides, I don't think you'd like it if I spilled your secrets, now would you?

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Your twisted lies are not my secrets, nice try, try again.

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So do it for yourself. What kind of man gets you all hot and randy?

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Women like to be raped, gays are child molesters, Jews are scared. Yeah, those are loving things. I can feel it all the way over here in California. You have such a warm feeling toward your fellow man and your heart bleeds when they hurt.

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All BS.

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Oh, you're going to make me trot out the quotes again. Damn...I've been slipping in my culling of your quotes. I really ought to know better.Women enjoy rape: Message 248 of "The bible and homosexuality: Round 3" thread: Message 236 of "The bible and homosexuality: Round 3" thread: Message 216 of "The bible and homosexuality: Round 3" thread: Gays and child molestation and recruitment: Message 222 of "The bible and homosexuality: Round 3" thread: Jews reject Jesus because they are afraid: Message 241 of "Is man inherently good or inherently evil?" thread: Message 260 of "Is man inherently good or inherently evil?" thread: In fact, when directly asked about it, you admitted it straight up: Message 264 of "Is man inherently good or inherently evil?" thread: This has nothing to do with me, riVeRraT, and everything that you have said while here.

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It sucks when even you lie, I still Love you.

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Is that why you condemned me to hell? Message 142 of the "Religion in Government" thread:

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Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

riVeRraT responds to The Dread Dormammu:

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Well, can you at least understand why someone who's homosexual might be just a little bit offended when you say that homosexuality is a sin? I mean you can protest and say "Well, we are all sinners" but nonetheless you are saying that something about them that they beleve they can not change is inhernetly wrong.

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Thast just it, I have not said it is a sin.

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Liar. Message 212 of "Homosexuality and the bible: Round 2 - morality." thread: Message 186 of the "Homosexuality and the bible: Round 2 - morality." thread, in response to comments about gay dolphins: Message 137 of the "Homosexuality and the bible: Round 2 - morality." thread: Same message: It seems you say that being gay is a sin quite a lot.

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The bible has said it is a sin.

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And your agreement with that and proselytizing of that fact is what, precisely? You're not saying the Bible calls it a sin out of some academic, detatched curiosity. You're saying it because you think it's true and want others to believe it is true.

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But that does not dictate how I treat a gay person, I still love them.

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Liar. Message 137 of "Homosexuality and the bible: Round 2 - morality." thread: Someone who loves someone will not stand in the way of their happiness and well-being.

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And if anyone tries to point out about how I am against same sex marriage, its not because I am against gays, its because I do not consider it a marriage.

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Which means you're against gays. You seem to think that gay people are incapable of marriage. If you really loved gays, then you would understand that they are just as capable of marriage as straights.Because, as we all know, marriage is not about breeding children.

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If there is a way for them to get all the legal rights, then go for it.

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The only way it can be [I][B]ALL[/i][/b] the legal rights is for it to be actual, honest-to-goodness, no beating around the bush marriage.Didn't you learn that "separate but equal" isn't?

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You are saying that homosexuality is a SIN.

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No the bible is.

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But you agree with the Bible. Therefore, you are saying that homosexuality is a sin.

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Isn't that intrappment?

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Yes. Either you believe it is a sin or you don't. The reason why you believe it is a sin is irrelevant. That source isn't here to do the talking. You are. Therefore, you are the one who takes responsibility for your own words.Are you saying being gay isn't a sin?

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No, if I am to act like a Christian, I am to turn the other cheek, and forgive you, so that I can be forgiven. There is no freedom in being angry at people, or holding grudges.

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Then you have quite a lot of anger to release: Message 188 of the "Homosexuality and the bible: Round 2 - morality." thread: Message 137 of the "Homosexuality and the bible: Round 2 - morality." thread: Message 217 of the "Homosexuality and the bible: Round 2 - morality." thread: Message 88 of the "Take the Atheist Challenge!!!" thread: Message 149 of the "Take the Atheist Challenge!!!" thread: Message 152 of the "Take the Atheist Challenge!!!" thread (and I love this one because this is your entire post): Message 157 of the "Religion in Government" thread: Enough of that thread. Message 157 of the "Religion in Government" thread: I think that's enough.You've done nothing but judge people from the moment you got here.Oh, what the hell. One last one: Message 166 of the "Homosexuality and the bible: Round 2 - morality." thread: Telling somebody he's going to go to hell isn't exactly a non-judgemental act. Message 142 of the "Religion in Government" thread: Better get started on those relaxation exercises:

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Its not marriage, thats how I feel, you expect me to change how I feel?

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Yes. We always expect evil people to reform their ways once they are shown the evil of their ways.

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The point of the verse, for the 100th time, is if she enjoys the rape, then its not really rape is it?

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But the point you seem to be completely missing, no matter how many times it is pointed out to you, is that the only criterion that is being used to determine if she "enjoyed" the rape is whether or not she screamed.That's it. The only thing to show that she "enjoyed" being raped is that she didn't scream. So despite the fact that you have been given myriad examples of why a woman wouldn't scream, you still cling to this notion that if she doesn't scream, then she really must have enjoyed it.By the way, this attitude of yours still exists today. The State of New York routinely took the children of beaten mothers away because they called out for help. The reasoning? The mothers allowed the children to witness the abuse and thus the mothers were guilty of neglect. To call 911 would mean losing your children. It took court action to get this ridiculous practice stopped.Now tell us, riVeRraT: Are you seriously saying that there is no possible reason why a woman might not scream while being raped? That the only possible reason why a woman might not scream when being raped is because she is liking it?

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You may think its not right now to stone a woman for cheating, but tell me a woman cheating is right.

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That isn't the question. This isn't about cheating. It is about your over-reaction to cheating and the fact that you are insisting it is cheating when it clearly isn't. She was assaulted and simply because you don't like the way she decided to survive the experience, you're going to kill her for it.

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Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

riVeRraT writes:

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Where does it say you can't get a tattoo?

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Leviticus 19:28: Ye shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor print any marks upon you: I am the LORD.This is what happens when you claim to understand a book you haven't read.

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Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!