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Author
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Topic: God is cruel
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Legend
Member (Idle past 5035 days) Posts: 1226 From: Wales, UK Joined: 05-07-2004
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Message 80 of 301 (300799)
04-04-2006 8:17 AM
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Reply to: Message 68 by DorfMan
04-03-2006 9:43 PM
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Re: They were told
Dorfman writes:
The child is told not to touch the hot pot. It doesn't really know that it is hot until it touches it. It can either believe what it is told, or it can live with the consequences. that's fine but why does the child's children and all their descendants have to live with the consequences ? Now here's a question : If that was your child touching the hot pot and you ensured that your child and all its descendants would have to live with the consequences for the rest of their lives, which of the following adjectives would be applicable to you and why ? : - 'just' - 'loving' - 'cruel' This message has been edited by Legend, 04-04-2006 08:21 AM
"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 68 by DorfMan, posted 04-03-2006 9:43 PM | | DorfMan has replied |
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Legend
Member (Idle past 5035 days) Posts: 1226 From: Wales, UK Joined: 05-07-2004
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Message 89 of 301 (300834)
04-04-2006 10:20 AM
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Reply to: Message 82 by riVeRraT
04-04-2006 8:31 AM
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Re: They were told
Legend writes: that's fine but why does the child's children and all their descendants have to live with the consequences ? riVerRat writes: They don't have to, they choose to. errr.....no! the children don't choose to live with the sins of the parents, they have to. we don't choose to live with the consequences of Adam & Eve's decisions, God makes sure we do. It's HIS rules not OUR choice. do you think this characterises a person as 'just' or 'loving' or merely as 'cruel' ?
"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 82 by riVeRraT, posted 04-04-2006 8:31 AM | | riVeRraT has not replied |
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Legend
Member (Idle past 5035 days) Posts: 1226 From: Wales, UK Joined: 05-07-2004
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Message 104 of 301 (300865)
04-04-2006 12:46 PM
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Reply to: Message 93 by DorfMan
04-04-2006 10:59 AM
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Re: They were told - so what ?! that doesn't make God less cruel
Dorfman writes: Why does the crack baby have to live with its mother's choice? The child and its descendants DO live with the consequences of the choices the child has made, big and small choices. It adds up. You know? Stephen Crane wrote some kind of poem on the issue of the sins of the fathers. Judging by its content, it is clear he does not see how the right choices made by him, me, and you, will affect our offspring as much as the wrong choices. That's very nice but it doesn't answer the question:
quote:
Now here's a question : If that was your child touching the hot pot and you ensured that your child and all its descendants would have to live with the consequences for the rest of their lives, which of the following adjectives would be applicable to you and why ? : - 'just'
- 'loving'
- 'cruel'
eagerly awaiting your answer,
"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 93 by DorfMan, posted 04-04-2006 10:59 AM | | DorfMan has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 152 by DorfMan, posted 04-05-2006 3:37 PM | | Legend has replied |
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Legend
Member (Idle past 5035 days) Posts: 1226 From: Wales, UK Joined: 05-07-2004
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Message 165 of 301 (301454)
04-06-2006 7:06 AM
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Reply to: Message 152 by DorfMan
04-05-2006 3:37 PM
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Re: They were told - so what ?! that doesn't make God less cruel
Dorfman writes: Thank you, but I believe I did answer your question. To my satisfaction. Yes, but not to mine. this is a debate forum, after all.
"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 152 by DorfMan, posted 04-05-2006 3:37 PM | | DorfMan has not replied |
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Legend
Member (Idle past 5035 days) Posts: 1226 From: Wales, UK Joined: 05-07-2004
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Message 166 of 301 (301461)
04-06-2006 8:03 AM
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Reply to: Message 162 by DorfMan
04-05-2006 8:00 PM
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what dots ?
Dorfman writes: Based on observation, in which you most certainly participate, ALL humanity IS punished when one man commits murder or adultery. Now, all you have to do is connect the dots. in what way is allowing ALL humanity to be punished when ONE man commits murder or adultery, just or fair?? I'm failing to connect the dots Dorfman, show me how !
"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 162 by DorfMan, posted 04-05-2006 8:00 PM | | DorfMan has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 188 by DorfMan, posted 04-06-2006 6:00 PM | | Legend has not replied |
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Legend
Member (Idle past 5035 days) Posts: 1226 From: Wales, UK Joined: 05-07-2004
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Message 191 of 301 (301864)
04-07-2006 7:23 AM
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Reply to: Message 189 by DorfMan
04-06-2006 6:10 PM
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Dorfman writes: The guilty by association syndrome is devastating to those who have not personally lifted a hand in anger. Humanity is our lot, and we share it with those who act on what is in all of us........the ability. To consider.......Thinking to kill someone, thinking to cheat on a spouse, is the same as doing it. What kind of punishment befalls the 'thinker'? What kind of law have you broken? If you break one, you are guilty of breaking all, according to scripture and civil laws as well. I'm not disputing whether guilt by association is well established in our legal and social structure or not. What we're discussing here is whether it's just and fair or if it's cruel. What do you think ?
Dorfman writes: James 2:10-12 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. 11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty. what about a new-born baby that has broken no law, yet dies of a horrible disease as a result of the sins of its parents ? is that just? or is it cruel?
"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 189 by DorfMan, posted 04-06-2006 6:10 PM | | DorfMan has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 199 by DorfMan, posted 04-07-2006 7:01 PM | | Legend has replied |
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Legend
Member (Idle past 5035 days) Posts: 1226 From: Wales, UK Joined: 05-07-2004
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Message 200 of 301 (302309)
04-08-2006 8:25 AM
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Reply to: Message 199 by DorfMan
04-07-2006 7:01 PM
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the Rule-maker is responsible for the outcome of the Rules
DorfMan writes: All humanity on this planet had no choice in being born.
Bingo! my point exactly.
DorfMan writes: Birth happens. Upon this event begins a domino effect we cannot outrun.
agreed again! now, who set this domino effect in motion ? (hint: three letters, first one is 'G')
DorfMan writes: The child is innocent of the sins of its parents, but must bear those sins.
why ? who says that it must bear those sins ? who made this rule ? (hint: see hint above)
DorfMan writes: Then we should probably not have children. To do so may be unjust and cruel. are WE doing a cruel thing when we have children, or is the RULE-MAKER doing a cruel thing by setting it all up so that the children suffer through no fault of their own ?
DorfMan writes: How you can determine that this is God's injustice and cruelty is beyond my understanding. ?!? so you think that a baby dying of cancer is unjust and cruel due to OUR actions and not God's ?!
DorfMan writes: You see God as unjust and cruel, when it is really we who are.
what you're forgetting here is that we didn't make up the rules, we're just playing along. Let me put it another way: if I intentionally dig up a hole in front of your front door and you fall in it and break your leg, who's being cruel ? A) Me B) you C) the hole D) other
"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 199 by DorfMan, posted 04-07-2006 7:01 PM | | DorfMan has replied |
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Legend
Member (Idle past 5035 days) Posts: 1226 From: Wales, UK Joined: 05-07-2004
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Message 210 of 301 (302383)
04-08-2006 12:02 PM
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Reply to: Message 202 by Faith
04-08-2006 10:38 AM
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Re: the Rule-maker is responsible for the outcome of the Rules
Faith writes: All this complaining about the inevitable consequences of our sins and attempt to blame it on God... ?!? ...and here I was thinking that sin and its consequences were defined by God and God alone (1Jn 3:4, Rom 3:20, Rom 7:7). How could I be so naive ? now tell me, who set up this sin / consequences framework ? just so that I can have someone to blame you understand.
Faith writes: ...but it is God who gave the solution to the problem.
it's God who CREATED the so-called problem in the first place. I dig a hole in front of your door and then I give you a thin plank so that you can balance your way safely out of your house. Wow, ain't I good and merciful!
Faith writes: His word is full of advice about how to live so as to avoid the consequences you are talking about. Stop sinning and trust in Him. He is also a healer -- those who trust in Him and pray to Him receive all kinds of blessings, including the healing of all kinds of diseases caused by the Fall. I take it there are no Christians dying from disease then ? or is it that the ones who die horribly just didn't pray hard enough ?!
Faith writes: He also sent His Son to die for us so we can have eternal life. that is so twisted on so many levels it merits a thread of its own. This message has been edited by Legend, 04-08-2006 12:12 PM
"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 202 by Faith, posted 04-08-2006 10:38 AM | | Faith has not replied |
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Legend
Member (Idle past 5035 days) Posts: 1226 From: Wales, UK Joined: 05-07-2004
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Message 211 of 301 (302396)
04-08-2006 12:33 PM
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Reply to: Message 203 by DorfMan
04-08-2006 10:56 AM
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Re: the Rule-maker is responsible for the outcome of the Rules
Legend writes: what you're forgetting here is that we didn't make up the rules, we're just playing along. Dorfman writes: I forget nothing. It is convenient for the non-believer to post such questions only to deride the given answers so he can keep his ball rolling and hope for an outcome suitable to his ball. what is convenient is ignoring the biblical fact that God created this whole cruel, unjust and unfair system (Isa 45:7-12, Amos 3:6, Col 1:16, Heb 11:3), when it suits us. what is convenient is applying the terms 'cruel', 'unfair' and 'unjust' to actions initiated by man and not to the same actions when initiated by God. what is convenient is attributing good things to God and bad things to man/the devil/free will/etc.
Legend writes: You want me to say something I cannot say without becoming a liar. I want you to say something you cannot say without dropping your moral double standards. This message has been edited by Legend, 04-08-2006 01:30 PM
"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 203 by DorfMan, posted 04-08-2006 10:56 AM | | DorfMan has not replied |
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Legend
Member (Idle past 5035 days) Posts: 1226 From: Wales, UK Joined: 05-07-2004
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Message 212 of 301 (302400)
04-08-2006 12:42 PM
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Reply to: Message 204 by DorfMan
04-08-2006 11:00 AM
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Re: the Rule-maker is responsible for the outcome of the Rules
Dorfman writes: It is easier for a camel to go through the eyes of a needle than for the one with an axe to grind to find a better use for it. There must be scoffers. Else we would think we had gone to heaven. ahh....self-righteousness followed by self-justification. The cornerstone of a healthy belief system!
"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 204 by DorfMan, posted 04-08-2006 11:00 AM | | DorfMan has not replied |
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