God is cruel

So if God is so merciful why doesn't he simply put us back to the pre-fall position? instead of holding us all responsible for the actions of Adam and Eve however many thousands of years ago?why doesn't he make himself plain to us so we can actually exercise this "free will" he has endowed us with?Free will is worth nothing if you are not fully presented with all the choices. You yourself state that we do not currently have the ability to discern what is evidence and what is not.So, if God is fair, and merciful, the least he should do is give us the ability to make an informed, intelligent choice. Your understanding of the fall means we do not have this ability so long as our judgment is clouded.

So.. back to the question of God being all-powerful or not.apparently not if he is bound by 'justice'what is Just about punishing humanity for the actions of two people thousands of years ago?
What is just about tens of thousands of children.. innocent children dying in agony from starvation each day? Free will is not free will if we do not have the capability to make an informed intelligent choice.
you have said that we cannot trust our own judgement or decisions. So.. what makes you so certain your decision (wrt Christianity) is the right one?

Seems there's a lot more chances for us to screw up than there was in Adam and Eve's years. they were forbiddden from eating an from a tree.Seems nowadays we're all doomed from the word go... unless (according to some evangelicals) you believe, in which case nomatter what you do, you're destined for heaven.and.. even if I do make the right choice.. will I revert to a pre fall scenario? will I get to walk around naked? will I no longer have to toil?justice indeed

Even if it is merely as a construct to attribute morality to?

Original sin. (if you subscribe to that notion) So why then do you believe This message has been edited by Creavolution, 04-03-2006 05:36 PM

NO.. I can't.. I'd like to think she does, and all the evidence says she does (30 years of worrying about me, picking me up when I fall, fixing my cuts and bruises etc.. etc), but It can't be proved.your point?

And that seems just to you? that seems fair to you?Is this the 'merciful' God you worship?A god that would make a child's life horrific because of the actions of it's mother? how can you possibly justify such a thing?you can have him.

Has he provided any evidence that HE does?NOw I have evidence that leads me to believe my mother loves me, she bore me, fed me, clothed me, kept me safe.. etc. That much I know, that is evidence.As far as I am concerned I have no evidence that a God has taken this same time and effort to guard my well being.in fact you could say that my mother was protecting me all these years from 'acts of god', with out my mother, and left to fend for my self I would have surely died. I don't think God would have giuded me through life with no other human input.

Pure speculation, Everything is evidence for an existance, but does not point in any way to the existance of a god.
I have met, interacted, witnessed my mother and her love. The same cannot be said for GodPlease explain why you feel that 'everything' in evidence for God?

I can completely accept that you may get an overwhelming feeling of welbeing, of goodness, of love. That you will search for an explanation of everything around you, and God, in one respect is an easy solution, it provides answers, a set of instructions, which if followed will make everything betterUnfortunately you lose at the very point that you attribute that feeling to God... From my point of view this is your way of applying meaning to something you cannot understand, 'God' is a very easy way to do this, I can't accept this, because the notion of God is unsupportable and contradictory.I guess (and i mean no offense by this, just explaining how I see it), I view this as pure self delusion, with the very real (and beneficial) effect of providing inner peace, peace in the knowledge/belief that you know what is causing these feelings. peace in the knowledge/belief that all that is unknown will be taken care of by god.But, i would side with Dan here when i say you do not choose to believe in something. Or rather, your belief in something in no way makes it real.
If it really were that easy I would choose to believe in Santaclaus, the easter bunny, happy endings. They would be no more likely to exist due to my belief. but they would be no more likely to cease to exist due to my disbelief.To believe in something, it has to present itself(or be presented) as something believable, possible, and likely. Otherwise I fear i do not have the capability to believe in it.This message has been edited by Creavolution, 04-05-2006 04:25 PMedited to fix quoteThis message has been edited by Creavolution, 04-05-2006 04:26 PM

that seems to add up to a strong possibility for a cruel God. no emmotion, just logic and reason.You feel it is logical and just to punish mankind in its entirety for the actions of two people?
You think it's fair that an innocent child should suffer because it's mother was a crack-head? is that just?
don't answer with a queastion... simply answer mine. I know what to expect..because I'm aware that there is no god to intervene in these things.
I'm asking you.. from the point of view of the child... is it fair? is justice being served?Do you think all of humanity should be punished if one man commits murder? or adultery?would this be Just?This message has been edited by Creavolution, 04-05-2006 04:36 PM

If that challenge is reasonable, yes, I know me, I know what I'm capable of, years of practice has helped me learn my limitations.however, if that challenge was to, say, jump off a cliff and float gently to the ground, I have vary little faith in that happening.Similarly, i find it impossible to have faith in a God which (if he exists) to me seems cruel, jealous, heartless and vindictive.Do I want to spend eternity with abeing who allows such hateful things to happens, which allows such pain anguish and suffering on such a massive scale?
no, I do not.

I don't see how this is true.. but I'm going to run with it.
is this Just?
is this fair?
should I suffer because someone far away, with no connection to me decides to spend the night with a hooker?

I understand you've heard these things manytimes here, but I've never, ever seen them answered satisfactorily. I'd like to think I'm quite an open minded, agnostic person.
My eyes are open but thus far there's been nothing to see.

a little test then.. don't think about green elephants....
make a real effort not to think about them, get all images of green elephants out of your head.
having much success?