God is cruel

I don't think the choices you're going to make are outlined in your creation. I think we have free will so I can't pick between either of these.

Well, it depends on what you mean by indirectly responsible. Like I said, I think you make the decisions, not that they are made for you beforehand.Is god indirectly responsible, I'd say yes, but indirectly more than responsible. He doesn't make you do bad things, he isn't responsible for the bad things you do, but he did make you so he could be considered indirectly responsible for those bad things. This doesn't really affect the argument in my opinion.

What do you think causes you to make the choices you do?Are your choices not defined by your personality and your environment? Does god not control both of these? If he does not control personality, then how does it come about?

Hi CS. My knowledge of Roman Catholicism is limited, and I hope my post is not off topic. You mentioned decisions are not made for you beforehand. But what about the Divine Plan? Is it relative?

I don't really know, I guess my feelings and desires. Defined by? More like governed by, yeah. I don't really know but I don't think that he does. From genetics and upbringing, the way you were born and the way you were raised.

Hello, What do you mean 'is the divine plan relative?'?

Heh. Well, I can dig that. Unfortunately, it then seems to make the Genesis story more of a metaphor than an actual historical event that had consequences, and I think our evangelical cousins may have objections to that.

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"Religion is the best business to be in. It's the only one where the customers blame themselves for product failure."
-- Ellis Weiner (quoted on the NAiG message board)

How could god not control genetics? He created the riginal set of genes in the first people, and all sources of mutation, did he not?How could god not control the environment? He created everything in the environment did he not?In his infinite knowledge, he's sure to know all of the interactions which will take place.

Sorry. I guess I meant to ask: what are your thoughts concerning the divine plan? I'm curious because I'm assuming from your name that you would believe in the divine plan, but an earlier post you claimed that "decisions are not made beforehand".

me too Well, its not really that unfortunate. I think the metaphor tries to explain some of the consequences. But I also have various interpretations of the story. The one is that the 'apple' is involved in all our moral decisions, like I already said. Another one I like is that taking the apple was when humans became modern in our intellect or when we became cognitive. Like, living in the garden was like being one of all the other animals in that seem mindless in nature and just be instinctual and live in harmony with nature yada yada yada. Then, for some reason, modern humans took a leap in intellegence and start taking matters into their own hands and found morals and conscience and all that. This is the taking of the apple, and being expelled from the garden is how we are no longer in harmony with nature, so to speak.I don't know why I just typed all that, I hope it made sense, I'm not even gonna proof read it. I just felt like letting you know. Fuck 'em.LOL, just kidding, but yeah, I don't care what they object too.

I think the divine plan can somehow coexist with free will (in some way that I am unable to explain, or perhaps understand even). But, if the divine plan and free will are mutually exclusive, I'll take the free will. Well, some of the assumtions you make about me because of my name will be correct and some won't, but don't assume that because 'Catholics', in general, believe something that all Catholics, individually, believe it too.

God can do whatever he wants and he can not-do what he doesn't want, IMO. I don't really know, I'd guess not. God can do whatever he wants and he can not-do what he doesn't want, IMO. I don't really know, I'd guess not.Its not like god is up there deciding where each individual air molecule in the environment is going in his great plan for the wind currents of that day. I think he is capable of doing that I just don't think that he actually is doing it. why bother?In the same sense, I don't think he is controlling all of the dicisions of all the people running around down here, he lets them do whatever they want. I think he could know all of the interactions that will take place but I don't know if he exercises that ability or not.

So.. back to the question of God being all-powerful or not.apparently not if he is bound by 'justice'what is Just about punishing humanity for the actions of two people thousands of years ago?
What is just about tens of thousands of children.. innocent children dying in agony from starvation each day? Free will is not free will if we do not have the capability to make an informed intelligent choice.
you have said that we cannot trust our own judgement or decisions. So.. what makes you so certain your decision (wrt Christianity) is the right one?

Seems there's a lot more chances for us to screw up than there was in Adam and Eve's years. they were forbiddden from eating an from a tree.Seems nowadays we're all doomed from the word go... unless (according to some evangelicals) you believe, in which case nomatter what you do, you're destined for heaven.and.. even if I do make the right choice.. will I revert to a pre fall scenario? will I get to walk around naked? will I no longer have to toil?justice indeed

Even if it is merely as a construct to attribute morality to?