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Author Topic:   A question for Athiests/Evolutionists. (re: How can one not belive in something greater than himself? et all)
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5938 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 4 of 282 (161647)
11-19-2004 9:36 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by TheClashFan
11-19-2004 9:24 PM


TheClashFan
How can one not belive in something greater than himself? How can one go through life's difficulties and be unable to always know that at least one person loves you?
Well I have never found it necessary to believe in something greater than myself since I personally have been quite capable of dealing with life.What exactly about life is so difficult that you are unable to face it alone? Is it being alone that you fear or is it being lonely that is a problem?

"Calling Atheism a religion is like calling bald a hair color."
--Don Hirschberg

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by TheClashFan, posted 11-19-2004 9:24 PM TheClashFan has replied

Replies to this message:
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sidelined
Member (Idle past 5938 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 10 of 282 (161659)
11-19-2004 9:58 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by TheClashFan
11-19-2004 9:44 PM


TheClashFan
Aren't either of you worried about OTHER things messing with your lives? Things that you may not be able to see or notice? I shudder at thinking that many people do not know that they are still at risk of OTHER evil.
In the 47 years I have been alive I have never had any notice of an "evil" that was not simply the obvious work of people's personal decisions and I do not fear that such things as unseen forces because I have never known there to be such things.
Perhaps you have something specific in your life that is troubling you?
This message has been edited by sidelined, 11-19-2004 10:50 PM

"Calling Atheism a religion is like calling bald a hair color."
--Don Hirschberg

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by TheClashFan, posted 11-19-2004 9:44 PM TheClashFan has replied

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sidelined
Member (Idle past 5938 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 22 of 282 (161679)
11-19-2004 11:06 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by TheClashFan
11-19-2004 10:15 PM


TheClashFan
I don't really have proof, but I have my senses, and especially my eyes
Well I do not wish to make you think that your experience did not happen but I must inform you that our senses are easily fooled as are our thought processes.There are many excellent books and writings that are available to use to investigate how the mind we have works and the ways in which we decieve ourselves occur.
You are of course not mad and it is very much a sign of both good judgement and a healthy mind to investigate as you are doing by questioning others and gaining insight into how people deal with issues that you may or may not be facing at a given time in your life.Do take care and by the way happy belated welcome to the forum.

"Calling Atheism a religion is like calling bald a hair color."
--Don Hirschberg

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by TheClashFan, posted 11-19-2004 10:15 PM TheClashFan has replied

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sidelined
Member (Idle past 5938 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 32 of 282 (161827)
11-20-2004 2:03 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by Itachi Uchiha
11-20-2004 1:26 PM


Re: It's a matter of choice
jazzlover_PR
Everybody here at one time or another has seen strange shadows, felt deep emotions and stuff of that spiritual nature
I must disagree on the strange shadows and spiritual nature stuff.I do agree that I have felt deep emotions but how is this a mystery since it is our brains that produce the emotions we feel.
You asked the question of why evolutionist/atheists believe in what they believe
I must again disagree with you since I do not believe in evolution nor atheism. I doubt them both,however,I doubt them to a far lesser degree than any other stance since the evidence of the world is what is measured by our meager minds and that evidence sides with both of these.
Our brains are complex and our motives far more so.We fool ourselves frequently when we do not apply critical thinking skills.To be honest within ourselves is far more difficult than most would think and the evidence of our senses is not necesssarily reliable.Exaggeration and even lies are not uncommon and our social interactions and ego further complicate our search for clarity.
It is far more likely that god is an invention of wishful thinking to help deal with the hard actualities of life than it is an actual entity.It is telling that the god of any given religion requires belief before revealing itself unlike the universe itself which reveals itself when we study it to see what is there.
. He gives you the choice to follow Him or reject Him because he wants to see whats in your heart.
Yet god refuses to reveal himself as though that would invalidate what a person held in their heart.On a personal note I have never been given the choice because I have never known whether a choice exists or not.
Always remeber that God looks at the hearts of men.
So how would you know this to be so? Are you privy to knowing what god thinks or looks at? Indeed can you even explain what you mean by "the hearts of men"? I really would like to hear what you have to say on this.
Perhaps you could start a new topic so that we do not derail this thread any further OK?
This message has been edited by sidelined, 11-20-2004 02:05 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Itachi Uchiha, posted 11-20-2004 1:26 PM Itachi Uchiha has replied

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 Message 48 by Itachi Uchiha, posted 11-20-2004 5:58 PM sidelined has replied

  
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5938 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 35 of 282 (161848)
11-20-2004 2:29 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by TheClashFan
11-20-2004 2:10 PM


Re: It's a matter of choice
TheClashFan
What evidence do you have for this statement? Please give an example of such.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by TheClashFan, posted 11-20-2004 2:10 PM TheClashFan has replied

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sidelined
Member (Idle past 5938 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 56 of 282 (161933)
11-20-2004 6:58 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by Itachi Uchiha
11-20-2004 5:58 PM


Re: It's a matter of choice
jazzlover_PR
There are emotions or feelings that I consider spiritual. Love for example is one of them. I don't believe the idea that love is our brain finding a way for our body to reproduce because we all know that we don't need to be in love to reproduce. So I guess my question is: What's the purpose of our brain creating the idea of love? There apparently no need for it.
Well we can go further into this when we can express what we consider to be love and the motives behind it.Could you discuss with me the nature of what you would call love? That we have feelings and emotions is a result of physical phenomena in the structure and chemistry of our brain.
So you are basically saying that the history of the jews is also "an invention of wishful thinking" and that a person named Jesus who made one of the biggest impacts in history is also "an invention of wishful thinking" It it was an invention of our imagination why do we divide time in BC and AC
First off there is much to be desired in way of evidence for the existence of Jesus.There are no independent accounts of Jesus outside of scriptures during the period of his claimed existence.
That the character Jesus had an impact is a misleading statement since he did not have any impact whatsoever.People who supported the notion of a Jesus and the subsequent actions that they took are what constitutes any impacts on history.
1 Samuel 16:7 everything you need to know is here.
But the LORD said unto Samuel, Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature; because I have refused him: for [the LORD seeth] not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart.
Again I will ask how does a verse from an ancient text reveal the nature of god rather than merely the opinion of the writer as to the nature of god? How could this man have any more insight into gods capabilities than you since he also cannot be capable of understanding god as you say?

"Calling Atheism a religion is like calling bald a hair color."
--Don Hirschberg

This message is a reply to:
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sidelined
Member (Idle past 5938 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 92 of 282 (162156)
11-21-2004 9:43 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by mike the wiz
11-21-2004 9:00 PM


Re: Any omnipotent being allows evil to exsit
anne
First off before I start thank you for the short alias in small letters.Now on to the arguement.
This is the problem with unbelievers - they'll attack the hell out of you for supporting the bible, and say God is evil, yet they'll then say that evil doesn't exist - and a child murderer is not evil.
I am an atheist.When I attack a point in the bible I do it with the express purpose of revealing the contradictions.Here we have you saying that unbelievers say god is evil when the bible also has the same statement as found in this verse.
Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these [things]
God CREATES evil. Did you miss it? So if god creates evil then all evil is his creation.By implication then all evil is his responsibility.This is the bible making this statement not I.That you would support such is not my concern.What concerns me is that the belief in god as the creator of evil leaves the door open to people justifying savagery in the name of the bible.
I do indeed hold the view that evil does not exist.However I mean that in the sense that evil is not a noun{an indicator of existence} but a verb{an action of choice};not an entity but a choice fully the responsibilty of the one who excercises the choice to implement it.We cannot escape our responsibility and as an atheist I would deplore a child murderer and likely not be particularly merciful of the one who commits such a crime.
In fact, I doubt very much if the child were mine that the one who commited the crime could hope that mercy would be dealt him by myself because I would inflict suffering that he could not imagine in his worst nightmare.I do sincerely think that I would sacrifice all claim to civilized behaviour in such a case.You are chistian but I am old school.
Is that too dodgy for you or is there something vague in what I just stated?

"Calling Atheism a religion is like calling bald a hair color."
--Don Hirschberg

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by mike the wiz, posted 11-21-2004 9:00 PM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by mike the wiz, posted 11-22-2004 10:13 AM sidelined has replied

  
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5938 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 107 of 282 (162433)
11-22-2004 7:59 PM
Reply to: Message 103 by mike the wiz
11-22-2004 10:13 AM


Re: Any omnipotent being allows evil to exsit
anne
Would this not be evil? Would it be justice?
So then, even you can imagine a circumstance where an evil is just.
Justice does not enter into the equation.My depth of loss would eclipse my sense of mercy in this one instance.As I made mention before evil as an entity has not been my observation rather it is an action arrived at by choice and not a temptation presented by some entity.
That I would commit evil in this case is absolutely certain and it is a calculated decision I made many years ago.That I would be justified in doing so I do not believe to be true and in fact I would expect society to take the proper step of bringing me to justice.Regardless of the years of being a peaceful man I would shred any decency within me for this event and do so fully cognizant of the evil involved.
I am not proud of this stance but I do recognize this capacity in me and thankfully have not been placed in that horrible situation that would set this all in motion.

"Calling Atheism a religion is like calling bald a hair color."
--Don Hirschberg

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sidelined
Member (Idle past 5938 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 118 of 282 (162562)
11-23-2004 6:50 AM
Reply to: Message 114 by TheClashFan
11-22-2004 10:51 PM


Re: Survival is amazing?
TheClashFan
I just wanted to take this time to introduce an article on miracles I read and see what you thought of it. From this website http://www.skeptic.com/eskeptic05-04-04.html#Freeman
In the last issue of the New York Review of Books, Freeman Dyson reviewed a book entitled simply "Debunked!" by Georges Charpak and Henri Broch (Johns Hopkins University, 136 pages, $25), in which he ends by saying he concludes that despite over a century of failed experiments and lack of empirical evidence, there are valid reasons to believe in the paranormal. This, despite his cogent summary of Littlewood's Law of Miracles--defined as: "In the course of any normal person's life, miracles happen at a rate of roughly one per month." Dyson explains:
"During the time that we are awake and actively engaged in living our lives, roughly for eight hours each day, we see and hear things happening at a rate of about one per second. So the total number of events that happen to us is about thirty thousand per day, or about a million per month. With few exceptions, these events are not miracles because they are insignificant. The chance of a miracle is about one per million events. Therefore we should expect about one miracle to happen, on the average, every month."
Jim Holt, in the New York Times ("Throw Away That Astrological Chart April 29, 2004; Page D10) offered another calculation on miracles:
"Have you ever had a premonition? Did you once have, say, a passing thought about an uncle, only to receive a phone call five minutes later informing you that the beloved relative had suddenly dropped dead? If so, this probably struck you as eerie. You might have vaguely believed it was ESP.
Was it? Let's see. Suppose you know of 10 people who die each year. Furthermore, suppose you think of each of them once annually. There are 105,120 five-minute intervals in a year. A simple probability calculation shows that there is a 10 in 105,120 likelihood that you will, as a matter of chance, have a thought about one of these people in the five minutes before you hear of his death. Multiply this likelihood by the population of the U.S. (about a quarter of a billion people) and you find that roughly 25,000 people each year--about 70 a day -- will have a "psychic" experience of this sort. In fact, it's pure coincidence."
Despite this cogent explanation of miracles, Dyson concludes his review:
"The question of the proper limits of science has a strong connection with the possible existence of paranormal phenomena. Charpak and Broch and I agree that attempts to study extrasensory perception and telepathy using the methods of science have failed. Charpak and Broch say that since extrasensory perception and telepathy cannot be studied scientifically, they do not exist. Their conclusion is clear and logical, but I do not accept it because I am not a reductionist. I claim that paranormal phenomena may really exist but may not be accessible to scientific investigation. This is a hypothesis. I am not saying that it is true, only that it is tenable, and to my mind plausible.
The hypothesis that paranormal phenomena are real but lie outside the limits of science is supported by a great mass of evidence. The evidence has been collected by the Society for Psychical Research in Britain and by similar organizations in other countries. The journal of the London society is full of stories of remarkable events in which ordinary people appear to possess paranormal abilities. The evidence is entirely anecdotal. It has nothing to do with science, since it cannot be reproduced under controlled conditions. But the evidence is there. The members of the society took great trouble to interview first-hand witnesses as soon as possible after the events, and to document the stories carefully. One fact that emerges clearly from the stories is that paranormal events occur, if they occur at all, only when people are under stress and experiencing strong emotion. This fact would immediately explain why paranormal phenomena are not observable under the conditions of a well-controlled scientific experiment. Strong emotion and stress are inherently incompatible with controlled scientific procedures. In a typical card-guessing experiment, the participants may begin the session in a high state of excitement and record a few high scores, but as the hours pass, and boredom replaces excitement, the scores decline to the 20 percent expected from random chance.
I am suggesting that paranormal mental abilities and scientific method may be complementary. The word "complementary" is a technical term introduced into physics by Niels Bohr. It means that two descriptions of nature may both be valid but cannot be observed simultaneously. The classic example of complementarity is the dual nature of light. In one experiment light is seen to behave as a continuous wave, in another experiment it behaves as a swarm of particles, but we cannot see the wave and the particles in the same experiment. Complementarity in physics is an established fact. The extension of the idea of complementarity to mental phenomena is pure speculation. But I find it plausible that a world of mental phenomena should exist, too fluid and evanescent to be grasped with the cumbersome tools of science.
I should here declare my personal interest in the matter. One of my grandmothers was a notorious and successful faith healer. One of my cousins was for many years the editor of the Journal of the Society for Psychical Research. Both these ladies were well educated, highly intelligent, and fervent believers in paranormal phenomena. They may have been deluded, but neither of them was a fool. Their beliefs were based on personal experience and careful scrutiny of evidence. Nothing that they believed was incompatible with science."
Here is the letter I sent to the New York Review of Books in response to Dyson:
To the editor:
In his otherwise well-crafted review of Georges Charpak and Henri Broch's Debunked! ESP, Telekinesis, Other Pseudoscience ("One in a Million," Volume 51, Number 5), after reviewing the century-long history of failed attempts to build a scientific case for the paranormal, Freeman Dyson ends with a risibly ridiculous plea for openness to the paranormal because he is not a reductionist, because his grandmother was a faith healer and his cousin edits the Journal of Psychical Review, and because anecdotal evidence gathered by the Society for Psychical Research and other such organizations convinces him that under certain conditions (e.g., stress), some people sometimes exhibit some paranormal powers, unless they are placed in controlled scientific conditions, in which case the powers mysteriously disappear. I expected more from a scientist of Dyson's caliber. He should know that anecdotes do not make a science, and that ten anecdotes are no better than one, and a hundred anecdotes are no better than ten. Anecdotes may lead us to a research program, but the only way to find out if the anecdotes represent a real phenomenon or not is controlled experimental tests. Psi phenomena have now been subjected to rigorous scientific experiments for over a century (as Dyson notes), and the results are unequivocal: psychic power is a chimera.
So whence does Dyson's plea come? I suspect it is the same place that leads him to make statements like this, from his 1979 book Disturbing the Universe: "As we look out into the universe and identify the many accidents of physics and astronomy that have worked to our benefit, it almost seems as if the universe must in some sense have known that we were coming." His quasi-scientific attempts to reconcile science and religion, and to bring a form of nonmaterialistic transcendency into science, in fact, even earned him in 1997 a $964,000 Templeton Prize. Mind you, lots of people hold conflicting and often contradictory beliefs in their logic-tight compartments, primarily, I think, because they have not thought long and hard about the incompatibility problem. Dyson, however, does recognize the problem, but he wiggles around it by invoking Bohr's principle of complementarity where, for example, light can be both wave and particle. I'm sorry, but the principle does not apply to the paranormal (or to politics either, where Bohr tried to apply it). Either people can read other people's minds (or the backs of ESP cards), or they can't. Science has more than adequately demonstrated that they can't. That's the end of the story. And being a holist instead of a reductionist, being related to psychics, or reading about weird things that happen to people, does not change this simple scientific fact.
Michael Shermer Publisher, Skeptic magazine, columnist, Scientific American

This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by TheClashFan, posted 11-22-2004 10:51 PM TheClashFan has replied

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 Message 128 by TheClashFan, posted 11-23-2004 8:37 PM sidelined has replied

  
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5938 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 130 of 282 (162785)
11-23-2004 9:51 PM
Reply to: Message 128 by TheClashFan
11-23-2004 8:37 PM


Re: Survival is amazing?
TheClashFan
. As for telepathy, all of the women in my family experiance it pretty regulary.
Have you heard that there is a one million dollar prize awaiting the women in your family if they can actually show that their telepathy is real? Check out this site here JREF - Home

This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by TheClashFan, posted 11-23-2004 8:37 PM TheClashFan has replied

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sidelined
Member (Idle past 5938 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 139 of 282 (162853)
11-24-2004 6:39 AM
Reply to: Message 135 by TheClashFan
11-23-2004 10:36 PM


Re: Survival is amazing?
TheClashFan
Well, you may be misinterpreting your abiliyy to notice patterns as being unusual however these are normal and not at all psychic.A clue is available when you realize that this is a occurence among close family members who have lived their lives together enough to be able to pick up on these patterns.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by TheClashFan, posted 11-23-2004 10:36 PM TheClashFan has replied

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 Message 149 by TheClashFan, posted 11-24-2004 1:41 PM sidelined has replied

  
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5938 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 141 of 282 (162872)
11-24-2004 8:41 AM
Reply to: Message 140 by happy_atheist
11-24-2004 7:32 AM


Re: Any omnipotent being allows evil to exsit
happy_atheist
Well I guess not everyone is the same then. I have no longing to go home because i'm already there
I second that. It is far better to deal in the actual life you have than to constantly try to live up to an ideal of somebody else's making.
Carpe diem.We are all food for worms.

"Calling Atheism a religion is like calling bald a hair color."
--Don Hirschberg

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sidelined
Member (Idle past 5938 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 150 of 282 (163022)
11-24-2004 6:32 PM
Reply to: Message 149 by TheClashFan
11-24-2004 1:41 PM


Re: Survival is amazing?
TheClashFan
It is possible however you would need to explain what level of detail you are talking about.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 149 by TheClashFan, posted 11-24-2004 1:41 PM TheClashFan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 151 by TheClashFan, posted 11-24-2004 6:47 PM sidelined has replied

  
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5938 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 152 of 282 (163032)
11-24-2004 8:04 PM
Reply to: Message 151 by TheClashFan
11-24-2004 6:47 PM


Re: Survival is amazing?
TheClashFan
Ok So next step is to eliminate possible sources of confusion.It would be necesary for you each to keep a record of when these events happened to you individually and without the others knowledge.In order to eliminate the coincidence factor you must be able to show that the effects are consistently happening time and again taking care to notice both the times when you are having the episodes in common and when you are having the episodes by yourself.
This is a start to helping eliminate errors in human perception.If a phenomena is really happening it will occur still after eliminating other possibilities.
This message has been edited by sidelined, 11-24-2004 08:04 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by TheClashFan, posted 11-24-2004 6:47 PM TheClashFan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 153 by TheClashFan, posted 11-24-2004 9:32 PM sidelined has replied

  
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5938 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 156 of 282 (163061)
11-24-2004 10:38 PM
Reply to: Message 153 by TheClashFan
11-24-2004 9:32 PM


Re: Survival is amazing?
TheClashFan
Lots of it will end up just being SGS(stupid girl syndrome), but I'll propose it to them.
Not at all.It is merely the means by which you rule out the possibility of fooling yourself or making errors in timing or any number of other possibilities. This is the same kind of weeding out that science uses to avoid the error traps that humans are all prone to.It is indeed SGS but the initials actually stand for specially gifted sageness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by TheClashFan, posted 11-24-2004 9:32 PM TheClashFan has replied

Replies to this message:
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