A question for Athiests/Evolutionists. (re: How can one not belive in something greater than himself? et all)

ClashFan,First of all: Hello! I admire your willingness to put your beliefs out for examination, especially considering your age.The evidence for the existence of God, of course, is the existence of matter and, especially, life ~ so, that includes all things we can see or experience. All of matter, from the delicate inner workings of a hydrogen atom to the delicate movements of stars in a galaxy or of planets in a solar system, is highly complex and ordered.In particular, the existence of DNA is, in my mind, a profound evidence that a Creator exists. As DNA is a CODE, similar in some ways to computer codes, but which is far more complex, in process, function and results. Morse Code was invented by Mr. Morse, and the genetic code that eventually produced Mr. Morse (Human DNA) was invented by life's Creator.The Bible says itself that all matter proves the existence of God. Romans 1:20 says,

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For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse ~ NIV

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Psalm 19:1 says,

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The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork

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But your original topic was "How can people survive without believing in God?" Well, I don't know because I have believed in God most of my life (so, I can't relate), but that is not the same thing as surviving without God.The Bible states in Acts 17:28,

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For in him we live, and move, and have our being ~ KJV

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Finally, God did create good and evil. The Bible is clear about that as one atheist (I think) has already pointed out. Jesus also made it clear that hell is a fine reason to decide to do what He says. Consider Jesus's words in Matthew 10:28:

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And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. ~ KJV

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Nor has the God of the Bible ever indicated that He is using any of the various human concepts of justice to run His world.

Yes.First of all, the two are called CODES (see definition of CODE below). That is the most basic similarity. Second of all, the genetic code contains COMMANDS and computer codes contain COMMANDS, and the commands are made by symbols (0,1 for computers; four nucleotides for DNA) being arranged in a meaningful way. Thirdly, there is an environment and complex system in place (operating system for the computer; cell and its various systems for the DNA) in which the code is translated and the commands carried out.Here's some interesting information from a highschool textbook Biological Science: A Molecular Approach (Heath, 6th ed. ~ it's BSCS approved, too.)This text book, under the heading Coding Genetic information, says:

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[R]esearchers [have] cracked the molecular code of life, now known as the genetic code. These researchers were able to attach meaning to "words" made from the nucleotide alphabet. (p. 223)

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The next paragraph starts off with the DEFINITION OF CODE:

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A code is a system of symbols used to store information. (p. 223)

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Although molecules of DNA may be very long, they are made of varying sequences of only four nucleotides. Thus the nucleotides serve as four "letters" of the DNA "alphabet."...A genetic code would require at least 20 different messages ~ one for each amino acid (p. 224)

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Eventually the book gets to the idea that DNA code "words" are groups of three nucleotides. A nucleotide triplet is called a "codon" and can code for a certain amino acid (to be attached next) and commands like "start" and "stop." There are even synonyms: two or more different codons that have the same meaning. (pp. 224-225)DNA strands have an area called the "coding sequence region." (p. 229)We also find words like "transcription" and "translated" all used in relation to DNA in this chapter.As to how DNA is more complex than a computer program, consider the space occupied by the DNA in one organism (for instance, a human). The DNA is the data required to build and maintain that human (a tremendous amount of data ~ it codes for YOUR brain, as well, and YOUR brain is a tremendous structure). Computer code uses two symbols (0, 1) to accomplish tasks such as printing, controlling the monitor, making various sounds, and word processing. The data required to operate and control a computer (relative to the data of human DNA) is very small and takes up a lot of space (i.e., the harddrive)). DNA uses four symbols (four nucleotides), and by proper sequencing of these four symbols (human DNA) is able to build and maintain a human being. The data required to do this is tremendous and all the DNA in a human adult (which is really just the same DNA code in every cell somehow able to utilize different areas of the DNA depending upon location in the body?) takes up just a few teaspoons (so I hear). The output of DNA (a living human being) is greater than the output of any computer (printed spreadsheets, 3d video games, etc.) and the amount of data is greater and the data is stored in a much smaller area.I wish I knew more about DNA. But that is a good (if blathering) stab at your questions.This message has been edited by TheLiteralist, 11-28-2004 02:55 PM

It IS a bit adrift.Sorry.

I'm rather new to BBs. When you see a sub-discussion going off-topic, what is a proper way to handle that?Is it to make your post in an appropriate thread and leave a link in the other thread with an invitation to visit the link?(that is my first thought).This message has been edited by TheLiteralist, 11-28-2004 04:12 PM

Thanks.

Contracycle,I'm glad you consider this topic interesting.I'm afraid, as has been pointed out, that it is too off-topic for this thread, which concerns how atheists get along without believing in a higher power.For those interested, my response to Contracycle can be found by clicking on this link:
http://EvC Forum: Evolution of complexity/informationThis message has been edited by TheLiteralist, 11-29-2004 04:41 PMThis message has been edited by TheLiteralist, 11-29-2004 04:44 PM

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I Interpret Genesis literally.

It was comments, such as this one by Scrafinator, that prompted my posting at all on the subject that the existence of matter demonstrates clearly that there is a Creator.I do agree that a detailed discussion of DNA belongs elsewhere, though .That there is a Creator is abundantly clear, and true science has only implied it more and more as it has investigated the tremendous complexity within us and about us.This message has been edited by TheLiteralist, 11-29-2004 10:49 AMThis message has been edited by TheLiteralist, 11-29-2004 11:11 AM

AdminNosy,You're quite welcome.

Some in this thread have mentioned the "comfort" that must come from believing in God.Being a believer, specifically a believer in the God of the Bible, I have found both comfort and discomfort (fear) from my faith.When life is overwhelming, it is comforting to know that God is watching or that He listens and answers prayers (I was miraculously and instantly healed of a fractured hip joint, for instance), but there is also the knowledge that He doesn't always spare people, even righteous people, from the tragedies that can occur in this life due to physical circumstances, or more especially, violent, selfish people. The Bible is clear about this in many ways. The only source of comfort in many cases is the fact that God will judge all men at a future date (Judgement Day).Fear comes when I consider myself to be disobedient to God. Fear of hell can be maddening at times. So, I don't think the "it's a source of comfort" idea works completely.

Well, I'm sure you mean well with such a comment, but...To say that religion is an evolutionary advantage is patently absurd. {please see My Apology}First of all, religion is taught, not genetically acquired.Also, many religions put people at a disadvantage. My own religion does this, if only this life is considered. I could make much more money if I could be dishonest. I could have many more offspring if not for the Biblical restrictions on mating practices. I am unmarried and, therefore, have no offspring.While I consider evolution to be utterly false and ridiculous, if I did believe it, I wouldn't consider religion to be any part of it. I MIGHT consider that organisms with suicidal tendencies would be selected out (but if suicidal tendencies are genetic and if natural selection is doing its job, why do we currently have people with suicidal tendencies?)This message has been edited by TheLiteralist, 11-29-2004 04:33 PM

MrHambre,You say: Yes. I was describing my faith (beliefs) about God. I do believe Judgement Day will occur.How do I suffer? By denying my selfish lusts? But were I to give in to my selfish lusts (for instance, by being dishonest), would I not then cause others to suffer?How has this been used to make others suffer??? Whether or not I decide to obey Jesus's commandments is entirely my decision and can only have a positive effect on those around me.While walking the earth, Jesus (God) did not once force anyone to follow or obey Him. Indeed, He seeks willing servants. All are free to do as they wish. He merely warns that the consequences for disobedience exist and are extreme compared to anything we experience here. He also indicates that the rewards for obedience are beyond anything we experience here.I fail to see how Jesus indicating a day is coming when each man will give account to Him for all his actions and be duly rewarded is a scam or can be used to hurt others. Perhaps you have some specific examples you could share.This message has been edited by TheLiteralist, 11-29-2004 12:35 PM

Whirlwind,In my first response to your assertion that religious faith is a good example of an evolutionary advantage, I say: Well, I'm afraid I am guilty of being condescending (and a bit mean) with that statement, which you would likely find either rude or discouraging. Sorry about that.Better word choice would have been:"I do not consider religion to be a good example of evolutionary advantage."I see you've made only 3 posts. So, you're a newbie here as I am.

Oops! Double post.This message has been edited by TheLiteralist, 11-29-2004 04:22 PM

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I Interpret Genesis literally.

Open, perhaps, but not very stimulating to me (not at this time, at least)Of course, believing the Bible to be true, I think that the desire to seek God is a spiritually-directed (as opposed to a DNA, or physically, directed process). But I cannot emphatically state that the DNA isn't used to some extent for this. Of course, I believe God created DNA (wrote the human program, if you will ~ see note below); so, either way the desire to seek God, imo, would be from God Himself. It is a bit interesting to me that, in my conversations with people, they usually begin considering God in a serious manner around the age 12 (give or take a year or two).Now, IF there is NO Creator, then it seems unlikely to me that there should be ANY desire to seek God.To ascribe genetic propensity to something like religion (which has no counter-part I know of in the rest of the animal kingdom ~ with whom we supposedly share a common ancestor) seems counter-intuitive to me.I've only been here about two days, and already I have plenty of reading to do about topics that DO interest me.Whirlwind's post was not unfriendly and didn't deserve an unfriendly reply, thus, my apology (of course, I hope to remain friendly even if I receive unfriendly responses to my arguments or assertions). I probably should not even have responded at all since I don't find the particular subject personally interesting. lolI suppose some of us newbies, and we literalists in particular, I imagine, respond to everything at first. I have a propensity (is it genetic? lol) to do that anyway, regardless of the subject.*NOTE BELOW (Yes, that's a little joke)*
I believe that God also wrote the frog program, the snake program, the worm program, the whale program, etc. using the cool programming language known as DNA. Now if this little note makes you just want to post...please go to this thread, which is more related to the subject: http://EvC Forum: Evolution of complexity/information.This message has been edited by TheLiteralist, 11-29-2004 08:54 PM

Actually, in my life, the fear of hell has been the greater cause for my desire to obey Him. What about the Biblical heaven inspires lust? Beautiful surroundings, lack of sorrow, lack of evil: all wonderful things but none seem lust-inspiring.Jesus doesn‘t seem to be one to use enticements to get followers (but what is wrong with a Creator rewarding/punishing creations that please/displease Him, especially after having warned them?). Consider Jesus’s response when many decide not to follow Him any longer: If the God of the Bible IS real and He really IS going to have a Judgement Day, then I‘m glad for the warning. It is clear that it is up to the individual whether or not to heed this warning.This message has been edited by TheLiteralist, 11-29-2004 08:50 PM