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Author Topic:   A question for Athiests/Evolutionists. (re: How can one not belive in something greater than himself? et all)
lfen
Member (Idle past 4708 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 27 of 282 (161810)
11-20-2004 12:59 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by TheClashFan
11-19-2004 10:06 PM


Osama Bin Laden, George Bush, Bill Gates are messing with our lives to name 3 out of a vast number. These are the only kinds of demons I know of that are currently active in our world.
lfen
added smilies to underline my comments were in a light vein
This message has been edited by lfen, 11-20-2004 01:16 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by TheClashFan, posted 11-19-2004 10:06 PM TheClashFan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by TheClashFan, posted 11-20-2004 1:43 PM lfen has replied

  
lfen
Member (Idle past 4708 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 37 of 282 (161855)
11-20-2004 2:41 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by TheClashFan
11-20-2004 1:43 PM


they could be led astray BY demons.
"led astray" implies influence, perhaps of data? or memes?
For example the allegations that Iraq was a threat because it possessed WMD influenced Senators to vote to authorize military action. Iraq had possessed these weapons in sufficient quanitity to be a threat in previous decades, they had been obstructing as much as they could the UN inspectors. However, most believed rightly that they had no offensive capablities (possession of quantities of sarin to little to be a threat doesn't count). So did demons suggest this idea as a way to create war? What about the arguments by those who pointed to the current state of Iraq in virtue of the sanctions and inspections that WPD were not a threat. The thing is here is an example of ideas that have an effect in the real world.
Feelings and sensations are subjective and can influence perception. Sometimes a mood or too much caffeine results in my experiencing a mild anxiety. One form that takes is after leaving my house a part of my brain suggests I haven't turned off the stove, another part argues I been back and forth in the kitchen no burners were emitting heat. The other part insists I should return. It's a mild obsession that eventually evaporates as I get active. I believe this belief in demons is a hold over from prescientific times when it was an explanation for the brain and malfunctions of the brain, or unexplained natural activities that seemed unnatural like ball lighting.
I believe the churches promulgating this view now a days do it for power and influence over their members. After the movie the Excorcist there was even a small business boom in excorcisms. The current hypnotism for buried memories of abuse or alien abduction is the same sort of thing. And if you are exposed to people who believe these things the mind can get active along those lines. There are well documented studies and undocumented anecdotes of perceptual changes due to brain and hormones. Adrenlin can affect perception. If those happens in a climate of belief in entities then you have a bit of a positive feed forward. The beliefs increase anxiety or arousal resulting in more perceptual alterations resulting in stronger beliefs and around it goes.
To accept a demonic theory of hallucinations means explaining how tranquillizers and anti psychotics drive out demons and do so far more reliablity than excorcising them in the name of a deity.
I believe that in a modern country for a church to advocate belief in demons is irresponsible propagandizing to maintain power that can be harmful in the sense that it increases anxiety in sensitive people. They should be using something like rational emotive therapy to help people deal with anxieties or stress in a functional manner and not be using methods that will increase church attendance at the cost of the well being of their members.
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by TheClashFan, posted 11-20-2004 1:43 PM TheClashFan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by TheClashFan, posted 11-20-2004 5:37 PM lfen has replied

  
lfen
Member (Idle past 4708 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 39 of 282 (161858)
11-20-2004 2:49 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by CK
11-20-2004 2:26 PM


Re: It's a matter of choice
I see no evidence of Zeus in nature.
You best pray you are never caught out in a thunder storm. You might receive evidence of an extremely shocking nature, infidel!
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by CK, posted 11-20-2004 2:26 PM CK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by CK, posted 11-20-2004 3:04 PM lfen has replied

  
lfen
Member (Idle past 4708 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 41 of 282 (161868)
11-20-2004 3:15 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by CK
11-20-2004 3:04 PM


Re: It's a matter of choice
It's a good line.
There doesn't seem to be much input here from Jews, or Muslims. I try to represent some aspects of eastern thought as that is what interests me but I am not a formal member of any religion and can't really give an orthodox view.
Christianity dominated Europe for such a long time. With the Renaissance the rational element of Greek thought re emerged and developed into science. At least that is my view point. The tensions on this forum between evo and creo view points reflects a very long standing tension in european culture. For centuries the church dominated and is still a very major force in culture. And, to tie this discussion back into the topic, hence we find belief in demons and unseen immaterial forces still being seriously held in a society that has developed brain scans and quantum mechanics.
The tension continues.
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by CK, posted 11-20-2004 3:04 PM CK has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by Gary, posted 11-20-2004 3:39 PM lfen has not replied

  
lfen
Member (Idle past 4708 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 57 of 282 (161944)
11-20-2004 7:46 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by TheClashFan
11-20-2004 5:37 PM


I think evil behaviour arises in various brain functions either problems with inherited behaviours, or developmental problems, or programming/conditioning.
I think Ted Bundy was one of the sickiest most evil people I've ever heard of but I don't think we need to invoke demons to explain his extremely rare form of deviance i.e. sexual psychopath serial killer. Someone else on this list may have more information but I've never heard of a single cure of an adult psychopath. I've read about some therapies designed to treat children who show the signs of not being bonded to people and who enjoy torturing animals for example. I've certainly not heard of any psychopaths being cured by excorcism so I don't see any functional value in a diagnosis of demon possession.
Speaking figuratively of behaviour as being demonic, or someone possessed I understand but I don't think that means we can profit at all from invoking demons as a serious explanatory principle. Again it's science that has made some strides in treating these conditions.
There are also strange behaviours that can be shown to arise from various brain damages. Phineas Gauge's famous damage to his frontal lobes leading him to be transformed from a responsible hard working individual to an impulsive irresponsible person is an example.
I hope you will continue your education after high school and take some courses in psychology and science to go study these problems in more depth. When I went to high school we only learned the most basic of information. College offers a lot more.
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by TheClashFan, posted 11-20-2004 5:37 PM TheClashFan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by TheClashFan, posted 11-21-2004 2:05 PM lfen has replied
 Message 72 by mike the wiz, posted 11-21-2004 8:41 PM lfen has not replied

  
lfen
Member (Idle past 4708 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 65 of 282 (162077)
11-21-2004 2:24 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by TheClashFan
11-21-2004 2:05 PM


Well, you will be taking biology then and chemistry and some physics. I think you will enjoy your studies and I wish you the best.
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by TheClashFan, posted 11-21-2004 2:05 PM TheClashFan has not replied

  
lfen
Member (Idle past 4708 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 171 of 282 (163194)
11-25-2004 11:05 AM
Reply to: Message 170 by nator
11-25-2004 10:36 AM


Re: Survival is amazing?
FYI, between my husband and I, I am much more mentally organized and he is the scatterbrained one.
He's the professional scientist, though, so go figure.
Is that the "absented minded professor" syndrome? A person so caught up in their thinking about the subject that is of central importance to them that they don't pay attention to the mundance details of their lives such as if their socks match or where they sat their coffee cup down.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 170 by nator, posted 11-25-2004 10:36 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 174 by nator, posted 11-26-2004 7:36 AM lfen has not replied

  
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