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Author
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Topic: Did Jesus Exist?
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Buzsaw
Inactive Member
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Message 139 of 302 (276813)
01-07-2006 9:10 PM
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Reply to: Message 72 by Percy
01-05-2006 3:01 PM
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Roman Record Keeping
Percy writes: The Romans themselves kept excellent records, not all of which have survived, of course, but certainly no mention of any of the events of the Bible, if they ever existed, survive. I've been reading the thread for the first time and came on your comment here. So if the Romans kept excellent records, shouldn't this lend to the existence of Jesus in that Roman Emperor Constantine was not all that far removed from the first century. Historically speaking, the time span would be analogous to us and the colonial days. We know very well, the important who's who of the colonies. Getting to my point, would Roman Emperor, Constantine convert to and decree that his vast kingdom follow him to believe in and follow a mythical Jesus? Another point I want to make relative to your statement above is that Before Constantine, earlier emperors sought to stamp out Christianity because so many were turning from the pagan gods to Jesus. This, I understand included the burning of scrolls. Could this be a significant factor in explaining the absence of early manuscripts as well as mention of Jesus? After all to acknowledge Jesus might mean the acknowledgee becoming BODILY ADDED TO THE BOOK FIRES, OR CRUCIFIED
Gravity is God's glue that holds his universe together.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 72 by Percy, posted 01-05-2006 3:01 PM | | Percy has not replied |
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Buzsaw
Inactive Member
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Message 149 of 302 (276829)
01-07-2006 9:30 PM
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Josephus
Having not read the whole thread, I know Percy cited one of two references to Jesus in the Antiquities. I don't believe 20:200, as follows, has been cited. Correct me if mistaken.
Josephus writes: At this time there was a wise man called Jesus, and his conduct was good, and he was known to be virtuous. Many people among the Jews and the other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified, and to die. But those who had become his disciples did not abandon his discipleship. They reported that he had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion, and that he was alive. Accordingly, he was perhaps the Messiah, concerning whom the prophets have reported wonders. And the tribe of the Christians, so named after him, has not disappeared to this day (Antiquities 20:200). Having lived as a recording historian during the first century, I think too little is being acknowledged as to the significance of Josephus. I see it as imperical evidence, ever so much as a lot of what evolutionist scientists are claiming as imperical in their journals.
Gravity is God's glue that holds his universe together.
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Buzsaw
Inactive Member
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Re: Roman Record Keeping
RevDG writes: I'll give you one word for why constantine made it an empiral religion, control If it was about control, likely he, being a former polytheist would have simply add Christianity to the other gods in order to appeas/control the followers of those gods.
RevDG writes: being that a lot of the make up of the stories were co-oped from other religions, while having the chance of eternel life wouldn't you want it, to most of the people back then it didn't matter if jesus was real, though i doubt many people thought he wasn't Weak argument, imo. Constantine knew that thousands were willing to die and suffer the persecution for the Christ they believed in ever since the onset of Christianity. Faith makes a good point in this regard. 1. The desciples and followers of Jesus would not suffer horrendous persecution and die for a mythical god or one of the many gods. 2. That sooo many were willing to pay the ultimate price to follow one god was likely one reason for the conversion of Constantine.
RevDG writes: question buz, do you realize that the emperor could change the religion at his whim? so if he started to believe in christ so does everyone else Well then, how come there were so many other gods worshipped freely, but the followers Jesus being exclusively the persecuted?
RevDG writes: i'm not sure it was about convertion more than about other religions being dissatifactory, plus the christians from what i understand were causing a ruckus, such as telling people this world is not important,the kings don't matter,etc You missed my point which was that the burnings could well be a factor in the scarcity of early Christianity script.
Gravity is God's glue that holds his universe together.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 148 by ReverendDG, posted 01-07-2006 9:29 PM | | ReverendDG has not replied |
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Buzsaw
Inactive Member
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Message 165 of 302 (276859)
01-07-2006 10:29 PM
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Reply to: Message 153 by ramoss
01-07-2006 9:38 PM
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Re: Josephus
ramoss writes: The problem with that one is that it appears to be a total insertion into antiquieties. It is out of context from the rest of antiquties 18 (it is antiquites 18, not 20).. and it appear "just to be good to be true". It was first quoted by Bishop Euribus in the 4th century. There are no known references to it earlier. Some appolgists say that it was modified to be as Christian as it is. HOwever, since even the most conservative appologist will admit it is at least modified, I think it is up to them to show evidence it was there previosu to the 4th century. One point against it being genuine is the fact that Christian historian Orgien quoted from antiquies 18 rather heavily when discussing John the Baptist and his importance to Christainity. He did not mention the passage about Jesus at all. You're the one mistaken here, Ramoss. There were two references to Jesus by Josephus. 20:200 is the second one which historians do not contest.
Gravity is God's glue that holds his universe together.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 153 by ramoss, posted 01-07-2006 9:38 PM | | ramoss has not replied |
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Buzsaw
Inactive Member
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Message 211 of 302 (276928)
01-07-2006 11:25 PM
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Corroborating Evidence
It is important to understand that the more corroborating evidence there is to any debate position, the more solid that position becomes. From what I recall of what portion of this thread I've read so far, we have: 1. 1st century unbiased historian reference to the life and crucifixion of Jesus. 2. Biblical historical record. 3. Thousands willing to suffer and die. 4. Roman Emperor declaration/acknowledgement 5. Many thousands convert to in spite of persecution Shall we proceed from there? How about corroborating OT prophecy specifying precise details of Jesus as fulfilled per historical records? Then there's the prophecy of Jesus himself, being fulfilled that his gospel would be preached throughout the whole world to all nations before his prophesied 2nd event. Modern tech and the printing press has made/is causing that to be fulfilled. It is no coincidence that the Bible has been the global best seller for years. Jesus implied as much in his wonderful prophecy!  Then there's all those yet to be refuted prophecies which lend credence to the Biblical record. How about the calendar? I understand it came centuries later, but that it would become the world calendar, imo, is just one more corroborating bit to add to our collection of evidence. There are other corroborating factors to consider, but here's a few as food for thought to the skeptics who attempt to divide and conquer, honing in on individual evidences with disregard to the corroborating evidence. Considering the above, those claiming in this thread that there's no evidence whatsoever for the existence of the man Jesus have a very weak argument, indeed.
Gravity is God's glue that holds his universe together.
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 222 by ramoss, posted 01-07-2006 11:53 PM | | Buzsaw has not replied |
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Buzsaw
Inactive Member
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Re: Josephus
RevDG writes: its questionable whether josephus wrote all of that, I don't see an orthodox jew remotely calling jesus the messiah, it looks more like it was added - like many historians most likely recording about christians, not jesus In the first Jesus reference which is the contested one, he allegedly calls Jesus the messiah. Imo, this lends suspect, in itself, to the authenticity of this reference in that he was not, to my knowledge, a professing believer. However, in 20:200, the uncontested reference, he does not call Jesus messiah, but simply mentions the messianic claims relative to Jesus. Buz: Having lived as a recording historian during the first century, I think too little is being acknowledged as to the significance of Josephus. I see it as imperical evidence, ever so much as a lot of what evolutionist scientists are claiming as imperical in their journals. RevDG writes: people do look at josephus as significent, but not to provide evidence of jesus as a real person, but of jewish history Buz - its really sad to see someone take pot shots at evos when its purely off topic and uneccisary Pot shots? Off topic? No. I was making a comparison so as to justify my usage of the term, empirical regarding the significance of the Josephus quote as I perceive it to be.
Gravity is God's glue that holds his universe together.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 154 by ReverendDG, posted 01-07-2006 9:49 PM | | ReverendDG has not replied |
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Buzsaw
Inactive Member
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Re: Christ
pink sasquatch writes: Funny, I thought Christ was the source from which Christianity grew. But surely, you are aware that literate Jews, including Jesus, his apostles and most of the early church were the people from whom Christianity emerged from/grew out of. He also fulfilled Jewish prophecies prominent prophets proclamed .
Gravity is God's glue that holds his universe together.
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Buzsaw
Inactive Member
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Message 276 of 302 (277086)
01-08-2006 8:12 AM
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Reply to: Message 275 by Brian
01-08-2006 6:34 AM
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Re: Faulty logic
Brian writes: Many Muslims were/are willing to go to the 'lions' for Allah, therefore, by your logic, Allah is the one true God. What people believe, and are prepared to die for, does not mean that the belief itself is true. True, but the more corroborating evidence there is along with that, the more sound the argument becomes. AbE: I'm not seeing responses to that corroborating evidence I've cited in support of what Faith has given, or have I missed something? For example what are you skeptics doing with the 1st century Josephus quote since I set the record straight as to which of the two Jesus quotes have been contested? One weak argument was submitted and refuted regarding Roman Emperor Constantine's acknowledgement of Jesus. Then there's the prophecies, et al. This message has been edited by buzsaw, 01-08-2006 08:30 AM
Gravity is God's glue that holds his universe together.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 275 by Brian, posted 01-08-2006 6:34 AM | | Brian has not replied |
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Buzsaw
Inactive Member
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Message 278 of 302 (277090)
01-08-2006 8:47 AM
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Reply to: Message 247 by jar
01-08-2006 12:37 AM
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Re: mythicist imaginative speculative revisionism
jar writes: Even if Jesus could be positively proven to exist as a real, historical character, it would have no effect on Christianity. That would still depend on Belief, just as it does now. The effect is that it lends credibility to Christianity, just as Christianity would become uncredibe if it could be positively proven that he did not exist.
Gravity is God's glue that holds his universe together.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 247 by jar, posted 01-08-2006 12:37 AM | | jar has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 283 by jar, posted 01-08-2006 11:32 AM | | Buzsaw has not replied |
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Buzsaw
Inactive Member
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Re: mythicist imaginative speculative revisionism
MD writes: Personally I try to hold my beliefs until someone gives me good evidence to believe differently. That makes good sense, but where the stakes are high, as with the possibility of after death accountability, one should diligently search for truth, examining carefully as to which ideologies are soundly supported and which are not. Often beliefs are skewed by the reluctance of folks to have their lifestyle adjusted so as to become accountable. That may have something to do with the reason so many are reluctant to acknowledge the existing evidence of miracle such as fulfilled prophecy. The greater impact a given belief adjustment may pose, the greater the reluctance to objectively investigate into it. The fundamental NT responsibilities, as set forth by Jesus and the apostles are great, but imo, if one is willing to assume those responsibilities the blessings become far greater, including the after death blessings, eternal and the present peace that substantiated hope brings. Jesus, for example, said some place, something like, "If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, take up his cross daily and follow me."
Gravity is God's glue that holds his universe together.
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Buzsaw
Inactive Member
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Message 280 of 302 (277114)
01-08-2006 11:02 AM
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Pool of Siloam Discovery
While the recent discovery of this site, relative to the existence of Jesus is not, in itself empirical, it nevertheless is one more piece of evidence supportive to the historical credibility of the NT . Archeological discoveries overall, tend to support and corroborate rather than refute the historical credibility of the Bible.
Biblical Archeological Review writes: While watching municipal workersreplace a sewer pipe in the City of David, south of Jeru-salem’s Temple Mount, archaeologist Eli Shukron noticedthat the construction equipment had revealed two ancientsteps. Shukron quickly notified his colleague Ronny Reich,who identified the steps as part of the Pool of Siloam fromthe late Second Temple Period (first century B.C.-first cen-tury A.D.), as further excavations soon confirmed. It was atthe Pool of Siloam, according to the Gospel of John, thatJesus cured the blind man (John 9:1-11). The newly discov-ered pool is adjacent to an area referred to as the King’s Gar-den and is just southeast of what had long been called thePool of Siloam (see plan above). The other pool, however,does not date to Jesus’ time but to the fourth century ......... http://www.bib-arch.org/siloam.pdf
Gravity is God's glue that holds his universe together.
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