A question that was first presented by Socrates.

MTW God has killed, is this not a sin according to god?

MTWListen Mike if god cannot lead by example perhaps he should not make the rules.

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"You cannot reason a person out of a position he did not reason himself into in the first place."

MTW Yes but he created them and the tree so perhaps he should not bitch about that which was in his power to prevent.We did not sin Adam and Eve did .We have no evidence that anyone else in the same position would do so.

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"You cannot reason a person out of a position he did not reason himself into in the first place."

MTWOk but god did killing in the days before christ so the point still stands.God covets{thou shalt have no other gods before me}God commits adultery through the holy spirit upon Mary.Where does it end?

Rrhain Strange that he didn't pull a miracle and have it produce fruit on the spot as that would be more consistent with the character.I also wonder who it was that hung around long enough to determine a fig tree that still had leaves did indeed wither away.

riVerRat If he sees what is going to happen including the choices we wil make then what is the purpose behind playing out the inevitable? If you are to say that he has access to all the possibilities of choices that we may make then he is eliminated from perfect knowledge of things and therefore is not omniscient and cannot see how it will play out. Then why are there punishments and rewards to dissuade or persuade one course of action over another? Speaking strictly for myself the difficulty lies not in acceptence or rejection of this but of there being no tangible,unambiguous evidence to show this is indeed the case.The contortions necessary to explain such an entity are dubious at best and do not clarify issues but rather tarnishes them while at the same time polarize people rather than unite them.It is telling that something so supposedly obvious is indeed not the case.That is what I enjoy about the view offered by science.It is not bothered by uncertainty and doubt but is rather enlivened by such.
That we do not know the purpose of things does not matter. That we face it for what it is and the limit it imposes upon our mortal selves is a rich source of wonder and appreciation for such a rare opportunity.The overwhelming majority of those that could have lived in our stead is staggeringly large.It stands to reason that we should not squander such transient moments as we do have with endless searching for that which has no good evidence when so much sacrifice has occured simply for our mere existence in the first place.Man, can I ever run off at the keyboard.Apologies to all for babbling.

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[W]hen people thought the Earth was flat, they were wrong. When people thought the Earth was spherical they were wrong. But if you think that thinking the Earth is spherical is just as wrong as thinking the Earth is flat, then your view is wronger than both of them put together

riVeRrat Yes then I pointed out how what you conjecture here cannot occur without causing problems with other supposed capabilities god is assumed to have.It is not simply a matter of not understanding but of also such proposals standing up to scrutiny of their reasoning. Yes. That god can punish us is basicaly a given in holy books. The difficulty is that if we postulate that god gives us the free will{which is quite possibly not something we actually posses} to choose a course of action, including one that he does not want us to take, the result of our choices would then be a result of god's actions and as such are god's responsibility not ours if, by such actions, we disappoint god. That is where we part company. If you commit to something in that way then 1}it does not matter what you belieeve in you will never be able to depart from it even when it becomes crashingly obvious that it is wrong {witness Jonestown} and 2} you will fit the world to a preconception filtered through your assumptions before you investigate its phenomena for what they actually are expressing since, if you find reality to offer up things distasteful to your beliefs, then you must reinterpret that event or events to fit the preconception that your ego investment in it may stabilize and allow you to continue on in your belief.
To me though,for something to require that I provide the necessary frame of mind, in order for it to have any existence is silly. If god actually exists why would he need me to base existence upon? Sorry old man but there are innumerable ways in which a god could make himself known that do not require such ill gotten subterfuge. Then which god is the right one since such statements as this are common throughout history in many different faiths? Neither churches nor individuals are to blame only the nature of humans when they try to pretend to a stature of innocence and piety that they do not actually possess.The first principle is you must not fool yourself. And you are the easiest person to fool. Au contraire, my dear fellow.I have never found science to fill any emptiness.Emptiness is the result of not knowing yourself well enough to understand the difference between being alone and being lonely.We are all alone inside these skulls of ours and it is there that both wonders of generosity to our fellow man/women take place as well as the abysmal wretchedness that demands suffering of those same fellow men/women. The common ground you must understand is that you ARE FULLY BOTH NATURES and as such are capable of atrocities that you should not allow to see the light of day.What then is the correct path to avoid such things? There is none other than the path you construct to your society and the world at large.Ask yourself this. If it were the choice between my god and his teachings and the well being of the rest of humanity{most especially including those who disagree with you} which is foremost?
In your answer lies all your actual commitment to a peaceful world. The rest is just for show and is the mask you present to the world at large for whatever lie you wish to tell yourself.This message has been edited by sidelined, 10-25-2004 07:24 AM

Phatboy What neutral freewill Lucifer would that be? Do you refer to satan?The bible seperates the two in to seperate entities.Regardless the creation of even the vessel to carry evil if you will is nonetheless the responsibilty of god.That is unless god is a liberal in the minority government here in Canada in which case he is obviously above petty concerns such as responsibilty.You also query as to what are you and I gonna do about it?
As with all despots refuse to participate in the game, and rebel against the unnecessary injustice imposed by those who have not grown mature enough to treat their {in this case supposedly} creation with the respect due it.You do not support such ludicrous ineptitude from a child much less a god.Tell that god to grow the fuck up and deal with it already.This is of course moot and pointless in a world where such things are only whispers of dusty ancient manuscripts whose words are out of joint with the existing reality of the world.It is telling that a god who needs humans to obey his command when he has given them the power to do otherwise is not very bright nor very stable.Such a god is not also capable of creating the universe.