|
Author
|
Topic: A question that was first presented by Socrates.
|
General Nazort
Inactive Member
|
Is a thing good because god commands it or does god commands it because it is good? Neither - it is a false dichotomy. God and goodness are not seperate things - God is the supreme good. He commands morals not because he is higher than goodness or goodness is higher than him, but because he does not contradict his own nature.
If you say there no absolutes, I ask you, are you absolutely sure?
|
General Nazort
Inactive Member
|
Would you say, then, that if god commands someone to commit genocide that genocide is, then, good? Yes.
If you say there no absolutes, I ask you, are you absolutely sure?
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 90 by Amlodhi, posted 10-01-2004 11:40 AM | | General Nazort has replied |
|
General Nazort
Inactive Member
|
|
Message 91 of 314 (146571)
10-01-2004 5:21 PM
|
Reply to: Message 90 by Amlodhi
10-01-2004 11:40 AM
|
|
And if God commanded someone to kill your children, would you happily cooperate and consider it good? I don't know if I would cooperate, but intellectually, if God really said that, I know it would be the right thing to do.
Or would it then become a matter of you deciding that God never really spoke to this person; based upon your own concepts of what is right or wrong. In Christian theology, everyone has sinned against God and therefore everyone deserves to die. Because God loves us and does not want to punish us, he does not immediately destroy us and gives us time to repent. If he decides to judge someone in this life, then he is justified in ordering someone to kill that person he is judging. So to answer your question, it is right for God to kill if he wants, because we deserve to die. When trying to decide if God really spoke to this person, I would have to look at lots of other factors to make my decision. Among these factors is the fact that God doesn't really do that kind of thing in this part of history, and that he usually does not give that harsh of a punishment except for especially grevious sins.
If you say there no absolutes, I ask you, are you absolutely sure?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 90 by Amlodhi, posted 10-01-2004 11:40 AM | | Amlodhi has replied |
|
General Nazort
Inactive Member
|
Lam, What do you think of my answer to Socrates question?
|
General Nazort
Inactive Member
|
Well, you entered right into Socrates' trap. I guess it's your choice on how you want to live your life. Interesting... care to elaborate?
If you say there no absolutes, I ask you, are you absolutely sure?
|
General Nazort
Inactive Member
|
Lam says,
If you answer that god commands what's good, then you are admitting that there's nothing preventing god from changing its mind. If you answer that god commans it because it is good, then you are admitting that god ain't all knowing or all powerful, that it is subjected something even greater. This is true, but I did not pick either of these as my answer. Again, it is a false dilemma. The answer is that God is the supreme Good. He does not create what Good (for then he might change his mind about what is Good) and he does not command what is already Good (for them Good would be greater than God). Instead, Good comes from God's very nature, and he commands the moral law to be Good because he cannot contradict his own nature.
If you say there no absolutes, I ask you, are you absolutely sure?
|
General Nazort
Inactive Member
|
|
|
Message 100 of 314 (146767)
10-02-2004 3:06 PM
|
Reply to: Message 98 by Amlodhi
10-02-2004 12:55 PM
|
|
Abraham didn't think so: Gen. 18:25 "Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?" Abraham was talking about the righteous people in Sodom and Gomorrah who were not guilty because they repented of their sins to God and strove to keep his moral law. Since they were repentent and forgiven, they no longer deserved to die. I guess I should have said that everyone who has not been forgiven deserves to die.
If you say there no absolutes, I ask you, are you absolutely sure?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 98 by Amlodhi, posted 10-02-2004 12:55 PM | | Amlodhi has not replied |
|
General Nazort
Inactive Member
|
No, it is not a false dilemma. Yes, it is.
If you say that god is the supreme good, then you are saying that what he commands must be good. If that is the case, is there anything that keeps him from changing? Yes - God's nature does not change. What is good will always be good, and what is bad will always be bad. Compare: God arbitrarily creates what is good - he might change his mind and "todays evil could be tomorrows good." To: God's nature is the ultimate good, and his moral law reflects this. Since God's nature never changes, what is Good never changes. See the difference?
If you say there no absolutes, I ask you, are you absolutely sure?
|
General Nazort
Inactive Member
|
I was expecting this. You are defining what god is and isn't. Are you god? No I am not God. Are you saying I am not allowed to say anything about God because I am not God?
If you say there no absolutes, I ask you, are you absolutely sure?
|
General Nazort
Inactive Member
|
When you said that god is ever unchanging, you are putting your god in a frame. You are limiting him to what's what. You are basically claiming that he has no free will because he is stuck in some kind of good will loop. Whatever - this is for another debate. For now, assuming that God is unchanging, my answer solves the dilemma that Socrates posed.
If you say there no absolutes, I ask you, are you absolutely sure?
|
General Nazort
Inactive Member
|
Again, the fact that you are "assuming that god is unchanging" tells the rest of us that you would like your god to be in a certain way. You are telling your god not to be anything else. You are speaking for it. You are limiting it. You are making yourself above it by telling it what it can and can't do. This argument is absurd. The Bible clearly describes God, among other things, as unchanging. Am I putting God in a box when I say that he is omniscient, omnipotent, loving, and just? Am I allowed to describe any attributes of God at all?? Or am I supposed to say that any attempt at all to describe God is speaking for him and limiting him? Assuming that God is unchanging, what is wrong with my solution to the dilemma???
If you say there no absolutes, I ask you, are you absolutely sure?
|
General Nazort
Inactive Member
|
Your solution pretty much says that god has no free will. IT is forever trapped in this goodness nature that you are describing. Is there a problem with a God incapable of doing bad?? I would think that would be a good thing.
If you say there no absolutes, I ask you, are you absolutely sure?
|
General Nazort
Inactive Member
|
If god is unchangeble and it is good, then it has no free will. I guess you could say he has free will within the constraints of doing what is good.
We are not talking about what we would prefer or not. We are talking about god's capability to change what we would percieve as good or not. What we percieve as good is based on what God says is good, which does not change...
If you say there no absolutes, I ask you, are you absolutely sure?
|
General Nazort
Inactive Member
|
|
|
Message 156 of 314 (152195)
10-23-2004 3:14 AM
|
Reply to: Message 155 by riVeRraT
10-22-2004 8:20 PM
|
|
Hey riVeRraT, thanks for you comments I agree with you about sin not being made by God, but being made possible by God, and humans making the choice through free will to commit sin. However, I disagree with some of your other comments:
The way I read that passage, the perish means not to exist anymore, thats not suffering. Other Bible passages make it clear that to perish does not mean to be annihilated (cease to exist), it means to go to hell.
I also have noticed that the bad that happens to me (not others around me) is a direct corrolation to the amount of sin I commit. Careful here - remember Job? While sin in some cases may cause bad things, bad things happening are not automatically the consequences of sin.
If you say there no absolutes, I ask you, are you absolutely sure?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 155 by riVeRraT, posted 10-22-2004 8:20 PM | | riVeRraT has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 157 by riVeRraT, posted 10-23-2004 8:22 AM | | General Nazort has not replied |
|
General Nazort
Inactive Member
|
Is evil a thing?
If you say there no absolutes, I ask you, are you absolutely sure?
|
™ Version 4.2