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Author | Topic: Wholley Jesus! | |||||||||||||||||||||||
pelican Member (Idle past 5014 days) Posts: 781 From: australia Joined: |
[That ye resist not EVIL: but WHOSOEVER shall smite thee on thy right cheek...]
The question you should be asking is 'what do we do about the evil and the aggressor?' The way you see it doesn't address the problem at source. Hoping the aggressor will become passive is naieve. The aggressor(whosoever)is already abusing power by using physical violence. What caused the violence? If we don't resist evil, what do we do?
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Heinrik writes: Hoping the aggressor will become passive is naieve. That's kinda the point.
quote: It's thinking outside the box, like a child who isn't box-trained yet. Our biological response is to lash out at "evil" - it's the "fight" part of fight-or-flee. How's that workin' for ya? Has it eliminated violence? How often does violence even reduce violence?
The question you should be asking is 'what do we do about the evil and the aggressor?' The way you see it doesn't address the problem at source. It isn't supposed to meet the problem head on. It's supposed to outflank the problem. “Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels ------------- Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation. Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
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pelican Member (Idle past 5014 days) Posts: 781 From: australia Joined: |
[Suppose you knock my eye out. If I knock yours out in return, that leaves both of us less capable of taking care of our families, etc. There's also a chance that you'll retaliate and I'll counter-retaliate and so on until one (or both) of us is crippled or dead.]
And you think this isn't happening? What about the war on Iraq? What about the 7oo,ooo rapes in the United States every year? What about the terrorists?
[On the other hand, if I turn the other cheek, there's at least a chance that you'll stop your attack. Turning the other cheek is an attempt to minimize the damage.] Is the chance worth taking? What if I have a knife and stab your cheek? Or does the non-violent concept only apply to slaps? It may be an attempt to minimise damage, but does it? It may have a chance of discouraging a very small number who are basically non-violent to begin with, but most physical abuse begins in anger and the concept of turning the other cheek is of no use whatsoever.
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
dameeva writes: What about the war on Iraq? [...] What about the terrorists? You make my point. Violence begets violence.
What about the 7oo,ooo rapes in the United States every year? Turning the other cheek doesn't mean you lie there and let yourself be raped. It means you don't retaliate afterwards. Will retaliation prevent rape?
It may have a chance of discouraging a very small number who are basically non-violent to begin with.... Almost everybody is non-violent to begin with.
... most physical abuse begins in anger and the concept of turning the other cheek is of no use whatsoever. Turning the other cheek prevents the escalation of anger. If I hit you back, you're likely to become angrier and hit me back - and then I'm likely to become angrier and hit you back and then you're likely to become angrier and hit me back and then I'm likely to become angrier and hit you back.... “Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels ------------- Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation. Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
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pelican Member (Idle past 5014 days) Posts: 781 From: australia Joined: |
I haven't once suggested retaliation as a solution. I absolutely agree with non-violence but passivity doesn't work either.
I agree that no-one is born violent but some do become violent or develop a need for power, of these only a very small number would respond in a non-violent way if the other cheek was offered. Be realistic. Your theories (or the bible's) do not end violence, do not bring peace, do not bring unity and haven't for thousands of years. Isn't a third alternative worth the search?
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
dameeva writes: Your theories (or the bible's) do not end violence, do not bring peace, do not bring unity and haven't for thousands of years. Who said they would? Jesus' teachings weren't intended to be some kind of cure-all WeltPolitik. They were intended for individuals, to make individual lives better.
I agree that no-one is born violent but some do become violent or develop a need for power... And you don't think being surrounded by non-violent people would make them less likely to develop that need?
... of these only a very small number would respond in a non-violent way if the other cheek was offered. Again, it's not about them responding in a non-violent way. It's about you minimizing the escalation of violence by not provoking them further.
Isn't a third alternative worth the search? The alternatives on the table are turning the other cheek and not turning the other cheek. Feel free to suggest something else. “Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels ------------- Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation. Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
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Equinox Member (Idle past 5170 days) Posts: 329 From: Michigan Joined: |
In reality, his life as a mortal consisted of three parts. The cause was his righteousness. The effect was some loved and followed him whilst others feared and hated him. The consequence was cruxifiction. Ok two points need immediate correction. (I’m assuming you are basing this on a probable reconstruction of the historical Jesus, and on the Gospel accounts). First. It’s clear that Jesus (who I think probably existed, say, 80% likely - no need to get into that now). DID NOT get crucified because he was righteous, nor because he told people to be righteous. The Romans didn’t care about that. They cared about Jewish uprisings started by people who led military rebellions. The Romans crucified Jesus because they heard people say that he said he was the king of the Jews. This was a political killing to keep the peace - why would the Romans care if a Jew told other Jews to be righteous, or what a Jewish preacher’s private belief system was? The answer - they wouldn’t. Secondly - the words of Jesus that the Gospel accounts give us (regardless of how accurate they are) do not portray Jesus as a complete pacifist. He tells his followers to hate their families, he goes nuts and trashes the temple (in two independent accounts), and then there is this from Luke 22:
He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. It is written: 'And he was numbered with the transgressors'; and I tell you that this must be fulfilled in me. Yes, what is written about me is reaching its fulfillment." The disciples said, "See, Lord, here are two swords." "That is enough," he replied. Have a fun day- Equinox
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Equinox Member (Idle past 5170 days) Posts: 329 From: Michigan Joined: |
Goddy wrote:
Nothing Jesus said could justify killing non-believers. Well, “could” is pretty open to dispute. There is no question that people have repeatedly used Jesus’ words to justify killing non-believers. There are too many cases to list, both large and small. Perhaps the first big one is worth mentioning. Augustine, one of the most revered fathers of the church by both Catholics and Protestants explicitly used Jesus’ words in Luke 14 (the banquet parable), esp. 14:23 as justification to use death threats and torture to force people to become Catholics. This is in many of his writings, such as Letter 185, 11, and sees the gospel account of “making people come in” as saying that we should force people to come into the Catholic church. This was the basis for this same terrorist approach for over 1000 years, where heretics and pagans would be told to convert or they will be killed, or where heretics and pagans would be tortured to convert or die in the process. You may dispute that Augustine and others made a reasonable conclusion based on Luke 14, but being that people have for centuries used Jesus’ words (often citing specific verses) to justify killing non-believers makes it hard to make that claim you made above. In friendliness- -Equinox
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Doddy Member (Idle past 5938 days) Posts: 563 From: Brisbane, Australia Joined: |
Equinox writes:
Yeah, I guess it does. You may dispute that Augustine and others made a reasonable conclusion based on Luke 14, but being that people have for centuries used Jesus’ words (often citing specific verses) to justify killing non-believers makes it hard to make that claim you made above. But it's not just a bad conclusion, it's flat out contrary to what Jesus said. In Luke 9:1-5, we read of Jesus instructing his disciples to go and preach. What does he say to do when the people don't convert? "And whosoever will not receive you, when ye go out of that city, shake off the very dust from your feet for a testimony against them." Absolutely nothing about threatening people or torturing people to make them more receptive. Jesus just says to leave them alone. But I guess you do have a point. People could twist the phone directory to suit their needs if they wanted to. This is what we are up against. There are thousands around the world more being (home-)schooled in the same way. But the internet is far reaching! Teach evolution by joining the Evolution Education Wiki today!
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pelican Member (Idle past 5014 days) Posts: 781 From: australia Joined: |
Equinox [Secondly - the words of Jesus that the Gospel accounts give us (regardless of how accurate they are) do not portray Jesus as a complete pacifist. He tells his followers to hate their families, he goes nuts and trashes the temple (in two independent accounts), and then there is this from Luke 22:He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. It is written: 'And he was numbered with the transgressors'; and I tell you that this must be fulfilled in me. Yes, what is written about me is reaching its fulfillment."
The disciples said, "See, Lord, here are two swords." "That is enough," he replied.] Exactly, thanks. I peceive him as a nutter also. Maybe the Romans perceived him in the same way but dangerous too. My concept for this topic was to show that Jesus caused his own demise and caused\created both positive and negative effects and still is. I think if we examine the negative effects and see Jesus' life story from a different perspective, it would turn the teachings upside down. In other words we are not seeing the whole picture. We only have half. His followers chose to see the positive half whereas the enemies chose to see the negative half. Why?
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pelican Member (Idle past 5014 days) Posts: 781 From: australia Joined: |
[The alternatives on the table are turning the other cheek and not turning the other cheek. Feel free to suggest something else.]
Exposure?
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Hyroglyphx Inactive Member |
quote: The question you should be asking is 'what do we do about the evil and the aggressor?' The way you see it doesn't address the problem at source. Hoping the aggressor will become passive is naieve. The aggressor(whosoever)is already abusing power by using physical violence. What caused the violence? If we don't resist evil, what do we do? Theologically, this is where my wife and I disagree considerably. She is of the opinion that Jesus advocated total pacifism, whereas I believe Jesus taught pacifism when possible, insomuch that we make patience, restraint and forgiveness a focal point. As we all know, violence begets violence. As the Scriptures say, being kind to someone who is cruel to you is like "heaping burning coals on their head." I understand the passage to mean that by treating them the way they should treat you, their sensibilities and their conscience will ache over such an affront. That in no way means that we are to be completely passive either, because, as you said, it will not stop the problem of evil. In fact, unless you check the ill behavior, it will continue unabated. Total pacifism, in my estimation, is the same as allowing the unleashing of total bloodshed. Its a strange dichotomy, but I think most people have a general idea about what is acceptable and what is not. Getting in to a fist fight over machismo is not the same thing as stopping someone from raping a little girl by any reasonable means. As far as it relates to Jesus, I found a website concerning the pacifivity of Jesus that closely models my own beliefs concerning it. “This life’s dim windows of the soul, distorts the heavens from pole to pole, and goads you to believe a lie, when you see with and not through the eye.” -William Blake
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
dameeva writes: quote: Exposure? Don't waste posts with one-word answers. If you have something to say, say it. Edited by Ringo, : Fixed quote. “Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels ------------- Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation. Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
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pelican Member (Idle past 5014 days) Posts: 781 From: australia Joined: |
It's thinking outside the box, like a child who isn't box-trained yet.
Do you mean like a child pees it's pants whilst being potty trained?
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pelican Member (Idle past 5014 days) Posts: 781 From: australia Joined: |
ringo [Don't waste posts with one-word answers. If you have something to say, say it.]
It is the other way around, Ringo I've wasted many words in these posts.
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